Changing Classic League Schemes

[darKz]

Master a scheme, then come here and tell me "hey I'm so good in this scheme but I say this scheme is flawed for Classic league". Bring Dario here and let him tell me that Intermediate does not suit Classic league.

Gabriel is actually one of the best (or hardest trying? I dunno) Hysteria players out there and came here to say it sucks and is not exactly league worthy. The flaws in the scheme have been pointed out numerous times so it's not even a matter of "I lose Hysteria all the time, remove it" or anything along those lines, the claims do have their foundation.

Random: What about the time when Hysteria didn't even exist as a league scheme? It hasn't been around for that long and people already played leagues before it appeared. I don't think general activity would decrease by a whole lot to be honest.

Edit: I think I said this a while back but, we created a monster by accepting Hysteria in classic league...

[Flori]

@Flori's talk about start of a game or midgame.
Just compare it to rr where you do a great run, but knock your head 5 secs before finish. You still played better start and midgame, but lose the game, becauuse you dont finish.
The end of the game is always what matters in ANY scheme. The difference in hysteira is, that you call something a bad start which in fact is not a bad start. Shooting your own worms is far worse in other schemes than it is in hysteria. But also in Hysteria you can play bad at the start and have a disadvantage later (Playing bad is just defined different in hyst than in other schemes).

Its not start and mid game, its start and mid turn you are talking about in RR.
But even if it is for you, it's nothing like hyst, because if you fail your early and mid (turn then), you cant win by an only good end.
What you are saying after is true, hysteria ain't like other schemes, coz killing himself in this schemes is sometimes better than doing a 45 nade shot.
Of course the end of game is always what matters in ANY schemes, but the goal of every game SHOULD be to TRY to get an advantage early and mid game, so you have more chances to win at the end, right ?
But in hyst, someone getting advantage early and mid game dont have more chances to win at the end, because his opponent will just zook from below while you cant reach him.

EDIT : The idea of the topic was to remove t17 or hyst and shoppa from classic league and add big rr/inter.
I think we can say now there is no way we can remove hyst, so maybe we should try to focus on t17/shoppa/big rr/inter and stop talking about hyst on this topic^^.
Don't you think t17 and shoppa are not enough picked to be in classic ?  / Not enough skilled schemes ?
Don't you think inter and big rr should have a chance in classic league ? Inter can be interesting, it requires a lot of reflection, focus, and brainthinking to min and big rr is a lot played in normal and can make more people play the league.

[Aerox]

i agree about that hysteria thing ;p but i would like to see aerial in classic league.. u cant do lame things there..  and u need to be pretty skilled.

Aerial could as well be a flavor of the month pretty much like WfW was. Why are people so hesitant into changing the league to fit the schemes they like instead of trying to learn the basic pillar schemes (which will help them greatly with new and upcoming schemes)?

It's a rhetorical question, obviously the answer is because they've been allowed to think that way. We could as well all vote in favor of Aerial in the classic league and it gets added, like hysteria, and it's later, months later, when we start discussing if it's an actual good league scheme and noticing it's flaws. Do you think this is an effective way of running things? Because noobs aren't always noobs, they might vote in favor of hysteria because they got good at it fast (it's scheme with a really short learning curve) and once they're good like Gabriel they realize it has a bunch of flaws (not as a scheme but as a league scheme), this can all be predicted to an extent but certainly not by allowing everyone to have a voice on the matter.

[SPW]

I'm sure it will drop activity in tus when removing hysteria. That would be the wrong way.

TUS already losing people cause of TEL closing. I imagine what happens when Hysteria is gone.

[MonkeyIsland]

darKz,
Gabriel is one of the best Hysteria players, true. But he has so much passion for winning that losing in Hysteria makes him get fed up. Besides did I miss him being here saying Hysteria is flawed? you mean this one "Hysteria sux " ?

sm0k,
Aerial is an infant scheme, it needs to get spread way more.

Flori,
Hysteria is not only about good shots. A good shot doesn't necessarily means a good move in hysteria and many times can be a bad move while in other schemes a good shot is a good turn. In order to win Hysteria, you gotta manage the whole game which mostly is way more than good shots.

SPW,
How did we lose people by closing TEL? I thought people played it less and less. (getting tempted to bring it out one more season just to see who was right!)

[HHC]

Why do people mind so much about shopping? I rarely lose vs noobs in that. It's far from just luck, you can achieve a lot by thinking right. Same with T17. It's more brain-labour than roper and probably more than wxw as well (not to mention ttrr/bng).

And hyst... I do agree that there are things about it that just aren't 100% right, like the telecowing and the hiding at the sides. But right now, I pick it a lot cause I don't enjoy the other schemes as much. Even with all the flaws it's a fun scheme to play.

Classic league = most popular league, I think that has been mentioned before. Taking it apart to suit players will never work cause everyone has their own favs. There's people who even enjoy BnG the most. It would be sad to take it out, cause it might just kill the BnG-community and with that a style of play that has long been considered an art.
But I suppose MI means we should thwart the scheme instead. I'm all for that, but, in all honesty and modesty.. I don't believe it can be. Komo's unanchored BnG is pretty much the same and when you take it a little further like in the BnG scheme that I posted.. you'll run into problems regarding cheap play (you can either pile or walk to your opponent, which isnt very bng-like..; artillery in that sense is better but it's fairly boring and helps notchers..). Anyway... my 2 cents.

[SPW]

SPW,
How did we lose people by closing TEL? I thought people played it less and less. (getting tempted to bring it out one more season just to see who was right!)

Well, its "only" a hand full, maybe bit more. Guys like dilboy, tony, jakka, doubletime (!) dont play classic if I'm right. And there's me, without a clan with (my) default schemes senseless to keep staying. Not everyone has a clan where he can play default schemes. What should a defaulter or eliter do?

Its not a big amount, I agree. But we have to care every single active player to keep him in touch with worms.

[darKz]

darKz,
Gabriel is one of the best Hysteria players, true. But he has so much passion for winning that losing in Hysteria makes him get fed up. Besides did I miss him being here saying Hysteria is flawed? you mean this one "Hysteria sux " ?

Yeah that's what I meant actually. Why does it have to be people who are great at the scheme telling you (and others) what's wrong with a scheme? I could be awesome at Hysteria if I had a better mouse, I got the BnG and the tactics down no doubt and pretty much only fail at teleporting sometimes due to bad hardware. Am I not entitled my - by the way entirely logical and not biased - opinion about the flaws in the scheme?

@HHC: You're right about popularity being the main factor to decide the league schemes. But what's the worth in having 100 noobs (sorry) pick Hysteria nonstop in the league while 50 oldschoolers hate the scheme and eventually stop playing the league? Don't point your finger at the numbers, they're not real obviously.

[Kaleu]

i agree about that hysteria thing ;p but i would like to see aerial in classic league.. u cant do lame things there..  and u need to be pretty skilled.

Aerial could as well be a flavor of the month pretty much like WfW was. Why are people so hesitant into changing the league to fit the schemes they like instead of trying to learn the basic pillar schemes (which will help them greatly with new and upcoming schemes)?

>>> Very well said;.

[Chicken23]

If you all played with the correct schemes and not tus and improve some of the rules, bng, t17 and shopper would be fixed and wouldn't need to be removed in your silly arguments

[Free]

If you're not going to remove Hysteria, then could we at least do something about it? It could be a great scheme and it is unique, but no scheme can be so "lame" without being broken.. at least lower the SD time so forcing SD (to prevent lame gameplay) doesn't give the enemy 10 free turns to attack.

I think this would fix most of the problems since it works as anti-lame tactic.

[HHC]

@HHC: You're right about popularity being the main factor to decide the league schemes. But what's the worth in having 100 noobs (sorry) pick Hysteria nonstop in the league while 50 oldschoolers hate the scheme and eventually stop playing the league? Don't point your finger at the numbers, they're not real obviously.

The number of oldschool players who quit classic league cause of hyst will never be more than a handful.
Killing the most popular scheme among a LARGE portion of TUS players just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
I'm not against making classic really CLASSIC though, but there will be a big debate about which scheme belongs where and which doesn't. And for the veterans themselves.. I kinda fear that their beloved classic league will lose a fairly large portion of players when they have 'lighter' leagues to play for. You kinda NEED hysteria to be there. Right?
Surely the popularity of the league is more important than the little nuissance called hyst?  

[darKz]

Surely the popularity of the league is more important than the little nuissance called hyst? 

My personal opinion should be obvious enough.

Back when I was a noob I picked T17 all the time because it was the only scheme where I had decent winning odds due to crate luck. Nowadays it's Hysteria where there's not even crates. I'll let you guys do the conclusion to this statement.

[Aerox]

Why do people mind so much about shopping? I rarely lose vs noobs in that. It's far from just luck, you can achieve a lot by thinking right. Same with T17. It's more brain-labour than roper and probably more than wxw as well (not to mention ttrr/bng).

Because the scheme is bad and the community is not enforced (or hasn't been educated) on using proper maps.

I do agree with you whatsoever that in shopper it's really easy to nullify a noob and I'm against the removal of the scheme of classic league. I think in FB days it was proven that it could be a very successful league scheme in singles and in clanners when some clans actually became really good at it.

edit: removed offtopic

[Flori]

https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/schemes-13/schemes-tus-vs-newbs/msg121765/#msg121765