hysteria in the classic league

[TheKomodo]

While that may be true,

Yup.

it has to be assessed in relation to other established league schemes for it to constitute an actual argument.

No it doesn't. This isn't up for debate.

[NinjaCamel]

What about some kind of limit for picking each scheme. Like u need to pick something else when u ve picked same scheme too many times. but i vote for removing hyst!

[TheKomodo]

That's actually a good idea Ninja, maybe make a rule you can only do a scheme 2 times in a row (as your pick, this doesn't include your partners pick, if they pick the same scheme that's fine, but the same rule applies to them), then you must pick another scheme.

I am too lazy to be more creative with your idea but it's a good idea, I think it has potential, that's a new approach I think it would work...

[avirex]

i dont like that idea of limiting people from picking their favorite scheme....  what benefit does that have???  if i wanna pick roper a thousand times in a row, i should be able to... i just carry a greater risk of loosing more and more points as i go... thats my choice....


i was actually thinking just the opposite-


and i think this idea has been mentioned...

each player has the option to refuse one scheme... but not 1 scheme per person...   like, i cant just refuse ttrr, when mablak wants to play... but then refuse bng when komo wants to play...

more like, its a set option, in my profile the scheme i refuse, and no one can pick that scheme vs. me.   

then my rating is made up of 7 schemes, rather then 8...   but you can also choose to play that 8th scheme if you want... not everyone has to refuse 1 scheme if they dont want to.

i guess there is no major benefit here, other then trying to please certain people.... some people cant stand to play a bng match, some cant stand to play a hyst match, some people dont wanna bother ever player a ttrr... etc.

side note: you can change the "refused scheme" as many times as you like, but with a 24 hour waiting period, to limit the abuse. 


my opinion: the league is fine how it is, (many schemes need updating, but thats another topic, another time)  the original complaint that started this big discussion of the inactive, was about not wanting to play a specific scheme... i think this could solve the problem...

[Phanton]

What about some kind of limit for picking each scheme. Like u need to pick something else when u ve picked same scheme too many times. but i vote for removing hyst!

no, no and no removing hyst

[DENnis]

What about some kind of limit for picking each scheme. Like u need to pick something else when u ve picked same scheme too many times. but i vote for removing hyst!

no, no and no removing hyst

Hey Pt,

trl?

I'm sure they won't remove the most famous scheme. I love hysteria too and think it fits perfect in classic. It could get an own league (THL?) beside classic too, like TEL. There are much more people who like hysteria than people who not like it. Hysteria is one of the fastest schemes and easy to play even if you r not warm you can have some easy fun (but probably lose if u not hit enough). + Hysteria is so good because it is quite cheat- and luckfree which means pros would beat not so good players almost every game.

[Phanton]

What about some kind of limit for picking each scheme. Like u need to pick something else when u ve picked same scheme too many times. but i vote for removing hyst!

no, no and no removing hyst

Hey Pt,

trl?

I'm sure they won't remove the most famous scheme. I love hysteria too and think it fits perfect in classic. It could get an own league (THL?) beside classic too, like TEL. There are much more people who like hysteria than people who not like it. Hysteria is one of the fastest schemes and easy to play even if you r not warm you can have some easy fun (but probably lose if u not hit enough). + Hysteria is so good because it is quite cheat- and luckfree which means pros would beat not so good players almost every game.

maybe...

[ShyGuy]

I will paste here what I said in another thread about hysteria:

Hysteria could use random worm rotation... also, the scheme should be played with AT LEAST a total of 6 worms per color... the creators of hysteria intended it to be 8v8, cut this 4v4 bullshit out, especially in clanners.. it just quickly turns into a rotate rape/ 1v1 darkside bore-fest... I thought the whole point of hysteria was to try to use a variety of weapons in the best possible way in only one second.... you're supposed to teleport around your enemy in potentially lethal locations, not find a pussy hide and throw a grenade or petrol every turn until you uncover their hide so they can just teleport and darkside again and again and again.  In my mind, hysteria played in a cavern map would be extremely interesting.

The way the scheme is now, it just turns into a 1v1 quick bng... when I first heard of hysteria, the scheme played with one second, I thought "that sounds interesting, seeing what you can do with different weapons in one second." I think that is what the creators of the scheme intended, not just a simplified, quick 1v1 bng.

In hysteria, it seems that it doesn't matter how you play until end game.. it can be 4v4, 3v4, 1v4, 2v3, any combination, and the favor of the game does not tip toward anyone, which I believe is a huge flaw... there is no reward for making good attacks at the beginning of the game... it does not matter if you know how to defend against telerape... that argument is meaningless, I can just tell you I know how to telerape even if you think you are well guarded... it really isn't that hard if you have eyes and you can see what land your opponent's next worm can and cannot hit

The tweaks i named above, and others have mentioned these changes in this thread with me, could help mold the scheme into what it was meant to be.  I would really like to see some serious cavern hysteria matches... it would be interesting to see how you can maneuver your way around the cavern instead of just having a 1v1 darkside fest on a regular island map... in a cavern, i hypothesize that you would have to use skills that hysteria originally asked for, which is creative usage of weapons in 1 second... of course this has to be tested, just my theory.

Komo, you honestly don't know how to argue at all... you cannot forcibly demand someone to admit they are wrong, forcibly declare someone is wrong, or say something is not up for debate just because you said so... know this isn't personal, I believe we have overcome our differences... I'm against avi on this one, my good worms friend, and agreeing with ropa, someone i cannot stand.. please don't think I am mindlessly attacking you.

sure, the word  competitive can mean what you've said, komo, but competitive has multiple definitions, and ropa was clearly using it in the sense of risk, reward, advantage, etc, and you have not proven that hysteria qualifies as competitive under that standard.  The statistics make it clear that many people played hysteria in the league... how does this in any way tell us about the intricate details of the scheme, the tactics, the logic of the game?  Those intricate details, the tactics, and logic of the scheme are what ropa was using when saying competitive... pretty clearly...  If you really went through all of the trouble to argue with ropa about an alternate word definition, one he clearly wasn't referring to, then that is just sad.. you wasted a lot of space on this thread


EDIT: having an option in your profile to avoid 1 scheme? why? that idea rather obviously caters to those who have lesser cumulative skill... there's no need for it... that's putting the problem in the closet instead of facing it and getting better at it... being able to change that option every 24 hours would be even more terrible and abuse prone... if this idea must absolutely be put in, it would have to be limited to once a season...

EDIT2: I read somewhere in this thread about a group of wormers making all of the decisions for Tus instead of tus being a democracy.  For a while now I have completely favored the idea of a panel of extremely intelligent, objective wormers calling the shots here... the democracy here at tus is about as effective as the democracy in the United States... this community i think clearly lacks a majority of critically thinking minds... I mean, outside of the tus classic league, every aspect of worms is fun-based, funny, etc... why can't the people who want to play competitively (the definition of the word ropa used) have this classic league and call the shots? it's like 7 or 8 schemes, you funner wormers can have everything else that has to do with this game, but for the love of god, hand over control of the classic league to those who actually understand competitive gaming and want that here. \

thank you

[Peja]

why should be killing a worm early  rewarded in hysteria? if you kill a worm the other player has turnadvantage in elite, wxw and shopper as well. so handling this situation is part of a lot more schemes.
you dont want worm rotation in this schemes, why you want it in hysteria?

[Aerox]

why should be killing a worm early  rewarded in hysteria? if you kill a worm the other player has turnadvantage in elite, wxw and shopper as well. so handling this situation is part of a lot more schemes.
you dont want worm rotation in this schemes, why you want it in hysteria?

I'd say that in Elite the one who kills is notably closer to winning than the one who is killed, even if you can still pile.
In WxW counter piling can be done in a number of ways, due to not only weapon variety but the ability to knock.
I know you can make examples of these two things happening in hysteria, but we have to draw the line somewhere, because whilst you're right that piling (telecow is an awful term) exists in other schemes,  do you think it has the same "cheap" impact in all of them?

[lacoste]

I will paste here what I said in another thread about hysteria:
(...)

The 6v6 and even 8v8 worms per color is probably better at some point (surely you cant turn it into 1v1 hiding fest too quickly) but other than that it doesnt fix anything about the way scheme is played. Sooner or later number of worms on the map will drop down. I argued quite a few times about it with KRD/Auto and i came into conclusion that it needs testing (by testing i mean many league games to notice the difference) and it needs time to evolve to something better if theres any chance. Besides that you made some good points there, its exactly what hysteria is to me. Caves idea seems pretty rough, though. Cant imagine how tense league game could look like other than digging/waiting for SD (if any) and tele pilling would be even more powerfull.

[Peja]

why should be killing a worm early  rewarded in hysteria? if you kill a worm the other player has turnadvantage in elite, wxw and shopper as well. so handling this situation is part of a lot more schemes.
you dont want worm rotation in this schemes, why you want it in hysteria?

I know you can make examples of these two things happening in hysteria, but we have to draw the line somewhere, because whilst you're right that piling (telecow is an awful term) exists in other schemes,  do you think it has the same "cheap" impact in all of them?

its more powerful, because of unlimited teleports which gives you the oppurtunity to do a pile as many times as you want. so this technique is overpowered in hysteria. but it is reason to remove it completly? i would rather limit teleports. but in the end i really think hysteria is fine as it is.

changing basic parts  would make hysteria to an very cheap version of bng, without the possiblity of notching.

[ShyGuy]

exactly, peja.  teleports are unlimited in hysteria, eliminating any sacrifice or risk.  In elite, using rotation rape in elite takes a great deal of skill to pull off, plus you have the sacrifice of 1 teleport (out of 2), and teleport is very valuable in elite.  The scale of risk-reward in hysteria is just too imbalanced.

[Aerox]

changing basic parts  would make hysteria to an very cheap version of bng, without the possiblity of notching.

This is the big dilemma, and what makes changes such as the limiting teleport not the perfect solution. Because gameplay wise, you can picture that by limiting teleports people will hide each at the edge just far enough from jetpack's reach. And some games could end up being even more tedious (for those of us who don't like 50 minute darksiding games). But it would definitely make more sense, at least that way you add in a legit strategic factor, knowing when and where to use them.

[Mablak]

Although I don't think hysteria belongs in a purely skill-based all-round league, we definitely need to preserve it while it continues to be popular, the best we can do is figure out some worthwhile change to make it more skillful. As Shyguy said, most of hysteria's weapons are too seldom used, it always devolves into a 1v1 BnG(nPetrol) in the end; ideally we would want to make it a bit more different from BnG, but I don't know if that's really possible.

Limited teles seems like an idea with potential, not sure if it's been tried before. Having something like 5 teles would increase the amount of thinking a fair bit; turn advantage would be mitigated a little, and the end game would require you to have a keener eye to determine where to hide. It couldn't become a game of cat and mouse for too long. On the same note, you could also limit jetpacks, but really, we'd need some hella testing to see what the effects are.