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Author Topic: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?  (Read 14474 times)

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Offline Hussar

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2014, 06:26 AM »
i feel like a jehovah's witness being always ignored... 


 :D :D

@Topic

I dont wanna give an advices here. Just wanna say that TUS bring me back out of retirement...... i wanted to show everyone that i can!
I started to learn how to play pro here at TUS. Beating better players gave me more motivation. The winner of the leage had allweys my respect, there was no monay to win but u could won my respect.

And after some time finally i did it.

I played too much tus games to not said that there is no problem in the league system. There is, imo.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 06:39 AM by Berria »

Offline lalo

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2014, 06:47 AM »
Money is not the answer, this is a game not a job! You guys need to realise that we get old, we work, we might be in a relationship, some of us have children, new hobbies, a life. TuS has done everything in order to please the new generations but they don't seem interested in playing clanners. Just get over it or PLAY SOME CLANNERS, haven't seen Ray playing any in ages and come on Fada, you play once in a blue moon...

Offline Triad

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2014, 07:11 AM »
Since I'm a newbie leader of a big clan full of newbie players, I'll try my best to encourage them to play clanners and singles. Not a big help, but still better than nothing.



Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2014, 07:48 AM »
Anu, I'm not blaming him. I'm merely pointing out ropa's a hypocrit himself. All talk, no action.

Offline Xrayez

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2014, 08:36 AM »
, take off hysteria from league and come back to old,
perfect league would be the one without hyst, thats true. but we're talking about activity here, and removing hysteria will rather reduce activity than increase. its just too late to remove it. too many players got into it and removing hysteria will mean removing all those players

Offtopic, kinda
Spoiler! View

Indeed, I would remove tus site from my bookmarks

Imagine as Hysteria scheme is like whole other game, even better than W:A itself in some aspects. It is reincarnation of underrated BnG, really

If I could, I would turn Hysteria scheme into new sort of artillery game so you can remove hysteria from classic league at last! :-[

The scheme has some flaws, yes, but despite it, Hysteria could be a perfect scheme for the league

Offline Ray

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2014, 08:52 AM »
Anu, I'm not blaming him. I'm merely pointing out ropa's a hypocrit himself. All talk, no action.
Who the f@#! cares? All TUS does from the first day it was started is pick on ropa for the sole reason that he sees and points out everything that's a piece of shit compared to anything that was before. Stop picking on the guy and start listening to him instead of muting, banning him all the time and deleting his posts. His tone of voice doesn't break his arguments and you are the ones running this god damn website, YOU should be the ones with the actions, not him. So get off your high horses and start working on some shit, else this downslope we are all on will not end and we'll be where WWP is in a heartbeat.

...haven't seen Ray playing any in ages...
Well, yea, with who? I mean, I'm used to playing on Ventrilo and now we have two active members who refuse to get on Ventrilo and I won't play if I have to write in the chat everything.

...removing hysteria will rather reduce activity than increase. its just too late to remove it. too many players got into it and removing hysteria will mean removing all those players
You would not lose all those players. At the beginning, perhaps, a good chunk of them, but as soon as the Classic league regains it's respect, people will start competing because it will hold pride to be in a good position there. Now it doesn't.

Offline Aerox

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Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2014, 09:00 AM »
Your problem, ropa, is that you tell other people what they should be doing, but don't do anything yourself. Talk about hypocrisy.

Yes I'm a lazy bastard. But it's not like I started saying this when it started getting obvious.

I was getting banned from day one for stating these things (albeit in a childish fashion). Worms is not a competitive and durable game, we made it t hat way with leagues and more importantly, schemes. But when that took a backseat to being open to all kinds of wormers.

Chelsea is a great example even if it hurts him. He was given all the options in the world. He was never forced to be in an actual clanner clan. He was never forced to learn the schemes that are hard at first, but are interesting enough long term to have people interested in the game. Because he had all the options in the world. And we trusted people to make the choices and now this is what we have. This is the new generation of wormers. While the last one is playing Elites amongst each other and accepting a new apprentice once a year. Blame those circlejerking mega faggots too, no question about it.

I mean we still have idiots fighting for Hysteria for god's sake. Those simploids don't even realize it's all about the depth. Hysteria is not only easy to pick up, learn, and compete, it has no depth, ergo, it will never last. There's no reason to keep going and getting better in hysteria, you reach a ceiling in 2 days and there's no skill to practice other than a cheap version of 1999 Bng, that we had to change because we wanted people playing the game even if that meant having them learn sheets of paper at home they still went on to wormnet to practice that shit: that's a scheme with depth.

But this is all big talk, TUS never gave a flying f@#! about any of this. I'm just identifying the problem, that's still more than most do.

Either way, August has been historicall the worst month for worming, I can only remember summers being active very early in the game's life. And the internet is a different animal now. Roping needs half a year of dedication in order to be able to barely compete with the random players (never mind the actual good ones), so why would I do that when I can just log into steam and download a free MMO? There are no incentives.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 09:20 AM by Aerox »
MonkeyIsland, my friend, I know your english is terrible and your understanding of society limited. However, in real life, people attack and humiliate others without the use of a single bad word. They even go to war with lengthy politeness. You can't base the whole moderation philosophy of a community based on the use of bad words and your struggle with sarcasm and irony. My attack to Jonno was fully justified and of proper good taste.
Eat a bag full of dicks.

Offline Aerox

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Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2014, 09:17 AM »
Anu, I'm not blaming him. I'm merely pointing out ropa's a hypocrit himself. All talk, no action.
Who the f@#! cares? All TUS does from the first day it was started is pick on ropa for the sole reason that he sees and points out everything that's a piece of shit compared to anything that was before. Stop picking on the guy and start listening to him instead of muting, banning him all the time and deleting his posts. His tone of voice doesn't break his arguments and you are the ones running this god damn website, YOU should be the ones with the actions, not him. So get off your high horses and start working on some shit, else this downslope we are all on will not end and we'll be where WWP is in a heartbeat.

it's not like that lol. I'm pretty sure D1 not only reads but is also completetly aware. I don't have the formula to revive the league and no one knows if they followed the example of previous leagues we wouldn't find ourselves at this same point right now.

I did approach MI in private with a bunch of different ideas to promote activity in the past, but he's right, I don't have the power to implement shit, and apparently, one is only good enough for what he can do with his hands.

edit: xrayez and impossible need to stop playng devil's advocate when they can't even understand a page of Dante's: activity is only as good as it lasts. It doesn't matter you can get 100 new wormers by promoting hysteria. One or two might stay because they don't have anywhere else to go, but long term they're gone. Hysteria doesn't have enough depth to compete around it. The learning curve has to exist to hoop up people. That's why a game like Haxball*, a 2D flash game, has all the leagues you can imagine and "clanners" played daily, even streamed. It's all about the depth. But you guys play it because you're comformists, and it's the only shit scheme you saw yourselves able to compete. Because other schemes actually take effort and time to learn.^

*It's the same as worms. You have different "maps", the ones we play in leagues, 3v3 and 4v4 take around a year to be good at, and the learning curve is INMENSE. You still have Formula 1 maps, obstacle maps, minigame maps. Those are played in random public rooms and the day the league imposes those schemes in a similar fashion they do to 3v3 and 4v4 it's the day this same thing happens there, as it did here.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 10:07 AM by Aerox »
MonkeyIsland, my friend, I know your english is terrible and your understanding of society limited. However, in real life, people attack and humiliate others without the use of a single bad word. They even go to war with lengthy politeness. You can't base the whole moderation philosophy of a community based on the use of bad words and your struggle with sarcasm and irony. My attack to Jonno was fully justified and of proper good taste.
Eat a bag full of dicks.

Offline darKz

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2014, 09:42 AM »
About a decade ago the Worms franchise arguably 'died' (to some of us, anyway) because Team17 didn't listen to the older players/fans and gradually made their games more casual. While this may or may not have generally worked out for T17, it made the games after W:A a lot worse to us, because we were trying to get the best competition possible out of 'our' game.

Am I the only one having a deja vu here? TUS is the most casual 'league' I've seen in all this time. You get trophies for pretty much everything, there are as many cups as FTN did tourneys (too many = less appeal to win one, hint hint), activity is generally more important than maintaining a high winrate, the noobs even get their own stupid scheme added to our league (scheme-wise).

But it's all been said before and I honestly think it's way (way) too late to go back. Personally I'm done with this game, not because I don't have the time to play, I'm actually playing plenty of other games, it's just that W:A has lost its appeal. I don't have the urge to play league games anymore, mostly because it's worth jack shit winning a league nowadays. And money won't change that.

And ropa is right. Some of us were talking about the problems we have with this league. Definitely more than once. Nothing ever changed - because we were the minority in numbers. Now everyone is crying how poor the competition is because we were the majority in skill. Karma?

Just my two cents. No actual offense intended either, it's just how (I think) it is.  :-[
I remember knowing who it was but dont remember exactly what I knew
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Offline Ray

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2014, 09:47 AM »
it's not like that lol.
Comes off pretty much like that through the forums unfortunately.

It's all about the depth. But you guys play it because you're comformists, and it's the only shit scheme you saw yourselves able to compete. Because other schemes actually take effort and time to learn.
Yea, exactly, and depth of a game can get anyone hooked - unless of course they are used to being able to winning without any effort, that Hysteria and HAL and what not gave an absolutely great platform for. It's sort of what's happening in education and upbringing of children today: "You finished the race? HERE'S A MEDAL!!! Even though you were last and you have no idea where you are, there you go, have a candy!"

Berria is a great example of someone who got hooked. Couple of years ago I remember him being a less than average player, now he is pretty hard to beat! Or myself would be a good example! I still wonder if I completely understand what Elite is, haha! Or just TTRR itself... I must have spent thousands of hours with that...

Anyway, if you force people to make an effort for a win, they are going to get hooked and THAT'S what's raising activity, not starting a new league. Of course it is our responsibility to make sure that these players have every help they need so they don't get confused and they can easily get all the resources, helping materials and lessons that they need. And we also need to make sure that getting all this is as convenient and easy as possible.

Offline Xrayez

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2014, 10:17 AM »
Lies, it took me 2 years of constant practice in hyst to reach my level of skills. And there is lots of aspects to learn in hyst. See the replay xD It was damn hard to perform, lol. So many things to practice...

Even if it was offline, it is still possible to perform online (at least 1 bounce)

EDIT: you haven't even tried to be best at hyst before calling it shity scheme
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 10:26 AM by Xrayez »

Offline Chicken23

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2014, 10:52 AM »
Theres too many variables in all of this to blame a certain reason for the decline in activity or skill. Its just a combination of all of these factors that has resulted in the reason why wormnet is like how it is now.

If we try to analysis all these factors then maybe there is an outcome that can be taken so maybe based on the arguments above i'll try and summarize what has been said so we can look at next steps to take.

Hysteria

People are blaming hysteria but i don't see this as the problem. schemes are born and schemes die, some schemes in the history of worms used to be in the leagues and aren't now because they gradually lost interest of the players. Fort and Pro for example, etc.

Games evolue and although there may be no depth to hysteria it is still a competitive game that some players are better at than others and i think its justified to be a league scheme as much as i personally dislike the scheme, taking away something that new players enjoy isn't the right answer, they are the majoirity and the hysteria era player (the people who learnt it as a first scheme) go on to learn t17, elite and other schemes because they play classic scheme. Your overall skill we prevail and theres a reason why Random00, Mablak and Almog are tough to beat in hysteria, because they are consistent top league players.

Tus features

Again, these cups and different leagues like HAL and whatever do draw attention away from classic league. But they are popular and it is what the new players of today want to play? I guess there has been a drop in classic league activity for long enough that these players are just interested in these other type of leagues.

Look at TUS league as a company and wormers are its customers, a company is going to have a range of products to offer to its customers and companies review their products from time to time and examine what is working and what isn't working. If there is demand for these leagues and cups then TUS is going to support them because its giving those players something fun to do. You can't blame TUS for supporting these sub leagues because its the market of wormers that wanted them as they have created demand for it.
So where is classic and clan league in all of this? its in decline and when a product is in decline is usually dies or something is done to add an additional feature etc to improve it. So MI and others have tried to improve features to do this but maybe it hasn't worked. But that isn't TUS's fault, its ours. We are the players that are interested in the classic league yet collectively we arn't as active due to many reasons that lalo has pointed out.

Perhaps there could be less focus on the cups and sub leagues and less trophies and awards. This just comes down to design and display and these features in the league. IF classic is the most important accolade in worms than represent this in a visual design aspect of the website.
How much time does MI have to create a new design, probably not much. You shoudn't remove features, but the design could be changed i guess... But in general its our fault for not playing as much and less role models for new players to look up to and play against. So its easy to play in a cup or whatever because you arn't learning all the schemes to try and beat the best allround players. But to remove the free league schemes to encourage classic league isn't the answer.

Or we could be exterme and do it to try and change that community and give them only 1 option of playing classic scheme.. It could go horriblely wrong and all those players just quit and wormnet is even worse.

life

We all grow up and have responsibilities, 9-5 jobs, university degrees, houses, kids etc. We've all grown up with this game and i doubt many of us older players can sit at home on an evening searching for clanners untill 4-5am like we once used to. Nothing can stop us getting older but the only thing that could make things better is the desire to play wa again. That desire isn't as strong because the league isn't as competitive but we all still have a passion for wa right?, we are a community because we all deep down love this game. This thread has about 6 players discussing a game we've all played for over 10 years and Anubis, ropa, fada. We've all grown up knowing eachother on wn, so if we love this game so much why arn't we in ag looking for games? Maybe we can't but wa won't die because people like us are still here debating and trolling threads lol

technology

Theres so many other new games, streaming, netflicks, you name it, loads of stuff to do in your spare time that isn't playing w:a. Because of this there is a massive decline in the amount of time us older players will spend on w:a but more importantly it stops new players coming into the game and learning schemes and getting into classic. Yet in ag now there are plenty of noobs, its just about getting them into league games.



So whats the answer? I don't know. not a single person can change it and solve this problem, it has to be collective, but if we are here concerned about the quality of classic leagues then that is a start because as i mentioned, the power is with us to log in and search for clanners again. If we can be bothered.



Quick fixes?

Reducing the number of games required to reach clanner POs would help.

Maybe a microsite for cups and free leagues can be placed on a second domain so the first thing you see on the homepage of tus is all Classic league related, then all the different sub games are placed on a secondary site, the design would them promote classic being the top accolade to a certain degree..







« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 10:58 AM by Chicken23 »

Offline TheKomodo

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2014, 11:06 AM »
It's the beginning of the end, well, that started a while ago, now the ball is rolling faster, all good things must come to an end...

I think Rene said it best, this game has just lost it's appeal, I can't even believe it's lasted this long, more than half my life !

WA must surely have world records for gaming by now?



Offline Chicken23

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2014, 11:10 AM »
I know this is off topic

But why did team17 forums close? This surely hasn't help because there was a community of wormers on those boards too who ended up learning about wa etc.

I'm still in ag on snoop now and see loads of people i don't know hosting crazy schemes.. its those players that have to carry the flame and keep the game going right? How can they get into classic schemes tho?

Offline Chicken23

Re: Last clanner playoff was 4 seasons ago. Time to do something?
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2014, 11:17 AM »
Im going to throw out a radical idea.


What did wa have 10 years ago that we didn't have now?

Point based leagues with no other leagues, if there were scheme only leagues they were seperate like WEL.

If activity is low and people are put off by rating and ladders, lets try something completely different?

point based league. Max number of games (no unlimited games - this let people don and play clanners when maxed out - 3 points for a win, -1 for a lose) this also gives a chance to scheme specialists... If we have less players why not think about trying an older system because all the different leagues and ladders is too much for such an inactive game. Then good allrounders still can play as the playoffs still exist.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 11:19 AM by Chicken23 »