League change

[NAiL]

Still waiting for an answer to my question, if you dont answer in the next post ill assume you are saying that you admit you were wrong to say shopper and team17 are extremely identical "bar a few differences". Thats ok, we all make mistakes.

Who do you think would win in a shopper game, Dario or someone who is only good at ropers?
And who would win a WxW (assuming a hard map) the good roper, or the good defaulter?

I think it's a way to look at it that also shows which schemes require similar skillsets.

Its 50/50. Look at the played shopper games on TUS, there is absolutely no visible trend in the better defaulter winning the over the better roper, neither is their a trend towards the opposite.

Shopper has to be the most luck based scheme, without doubt. The only game changing default skill involved in shopper is that of doing as much damage as possible with each weapon (assuming we take things like piling, or the rare accurate plop shot/drop for granted). Even still fall damage is of little relevance. Most league players can deal maximum damage with a weapon in shopper (whether defaulter or not), its not hard to drop a weapon on a worms head in an open map with 30 seconds of time), the only way to deal more damage is by creating extra fall damage. Most players are aware of this and will hide in such a way to avoid additional fall damage. Even if they dont, fall damage doesnt even make that much difference, take this example:

A worm has 150hp in shopper. You pick up a sheep, drop it correctly and deal say 70 damage (without additional fall damage), you then need to deal another 80 points worth of damage in order to kill that worm. Even if you deal 80 damage with the sheep, you'll still need another two turns to kill that worm with normal powered weapons, unless you have the LUCK of picking up a high power weapon like dynamite.

A game changing weapon in shopper is the petrol bomb. Petrol bomb in effect acts as a girder (if the enemy worm is positioned correctly), in fact its worse than a girder seeing as there is no escape. If you have the LUCK of picking up 3 petrol bombs, just like the luck of collecting higher powered weapons than your opponent then it can win you the game.

Now im not saying that shopper is solely a luck scheme, not at all. Shopper is a game of consistency, if you think about it its probably the most "consistently good play" demanding scheme. Due to the nature of shopper you really cannot afford to mess up one turn. Creativity is minimal in shopper (due to the fact of being pretty much ALWAYS able to attack your opponent in any given turn). In a scheme like Team17 creativity has a huge role as you can avoid being attacked by blocking and taking the high ground. You cannot avoid being attacked in shopper, thus crate luck plays a ridiculously HUGE part in deciding the game assuming both players play sensibly.

If played on a good map, by good I mean a tight map with ample hides, hides that you can really HIDE in and avoid maximum damage, then shopper becomes a far more interesting scheme. Take fatal fanatic and old bloopy maps for example, these allow for far more interesting games than say... a map like dogma city shopping. What!? How can you knock dogmas famous map? As handsome as that map is, its terrible for gameplay. You can attack without fail easily every turn, there are no hides that actually make it significantly harder for you to be attacked by the enemy and the map is open as hell. Its sad that most shopper maps bare more resemblance to dogma city shopping, and less to old bloopy and fatal fanatic maps.

Like you said ropa, if shopper was played on more intricate maps all of the time, the scheme would be far more intensive, and far more enjoyable. However, even on intricate maps, default skills ARE NOT the deciding factor when it comes to winning. CONSISTENT ROPING is the deciding factor in shopper, along with getting good weapons as opposed to shit ones. Note I did not say good roping, consistent roping, sensible attacks and consistent roping to hides after you attack.

So yeh its 50/50, assuming both players are at decent level, the better defaulter has no greater advantage in shopper than the better roper as MOST of the default skills you learn in defaults are NOT translated into shopper, MINIMAL similarities in default skills are shared between defaults and shopper. Falling from your rope during a turn is game changing, picking up a flamethrower instead of a dynamite is game changing, starting first or second is game changing. Shopper does not require as many default skills as you seem to believe.

[Aerox]

Even if they dont, fall damage doesnt even make that much difference, take this example:

What about the thousand examples where FD does actually make the difference? FD is the difference between a 3 turn and a 4 turn kill with balanced shopper weapons. Because 48x3 is still < 150.

A game changing weapon in shopper is the petrol bomb. Petrol bomb in effect acts as a girder (if the enemy worm is positioned correctly), in fact its worse than a girder seeing as there is no escape. If you have the LUCK of picking up 3 petrol bombs, just like the luck of collecting higher powered weapons than your opponent then it can win you the game.

It's only game changing if you know how to properly use it. Don't

Creativity is minimal in shopper (due to the fact of being pretty much ALWAYS able to attack your opponent in any given turn). In a scheme like Team17 creativity has a huge role as you can avoid being attacked by blocking and taking the high ground. You cannot avoid being attacked in shopper, thus crate luck plays a ridiculously HUGE part in deciding the game assuming both players play sensibly.

This doesn't even make sense to me, what does the amount of times you manage to attack per turn have anything to do with creativity? There's a huge difference between doing 55 damage with a grenade and tossing it in a way that the worm is launched to a spot you can kill him afterwards taking advantage of piling and turn advantage. Not everyone does a display of creativity every turn, doesn't mean it's not there.

What!? How can you knock dogmas famous map? As handsome as that map is, its terrible for gameplay.

It's a bad map for leagues because some people have mastered in stupid amounts. But I think you underestimate the depth of this map.

You can attack without fail easily every turn, there are no hides that actually make it significantly harder for you to be attacked by the enemy

There are actually a couple of risk reward hides that require very precise knocks and can also allow perfect pixel blocks. Dogma City is a map were a good shopper can really shine against a not so good now, again, by abusing little map gimmicks that aren't good suited for league play.

 and the map is open as hell. Its sad that most shopper maps bare more resemblance to dogma city shopping, and less to old bloopy and fatal fanatic maps.

So yeh its 50/50, assuming both players are at decent level, the better defaulter has no greater advantage in shopper than the better roper as MOST of the default skills you learn in defaults are NOT translated into shopper, MINIMAL similarities in default skills are shared between defaults and shopper. Falling from your rope during a turn is game changing, picking up a flamethrower instead of a dynamite is game changing, starting first or second is game changing. Shopper does not require as many default skills as you seem to believe.

You seem to assume the roper can just as easily petrol block or use a full damage flamethrower as the defaulter.

[NAiL]

What about the thousand examples where FD does actually make the difference? FD is the difference between a 3 turn and a 4 turn kill with balanced shopper weapons. Because 48x3 is still < 150.

Even if it is the difference, the point is additional fall damage is one of the only default skills directly translated into shopper (point I was making). If you think about it, doing extra fall damage with weapons from the rope is a skill directly translated from roper, not defaults. "Ropers" know how to deal fall damage as its a big part of roper/wxw.

Even if you do additional fall damage, fall damage doesnt win you the game 99% of times. Your opponent falling from rope, failing to hide, missing a shot, or collecting worse weapons than you is what wins you 99% of shopper games.

It's only game changing if you know how to properly use it. Don't

Your posts seem to give the impression you assume "ropers" dont have any BASIC weapon knowledge. Dropping a petrol bomb or using a flamethrower is not an advacned default skill, go watch NNN replays to see advanced default skill. Shopper is NOT the scheme for advanced default skill. I believe you are confusing you're terminology here, you seem to be confusing the word "roper" for "noob". Noobs dont know how to use weapons properly, ropers know how to use weapons properly, defaulters know how to use weapons properly and a whole f@#! load more when playing DEFAULT schemes.

This doesn't even make sense to me, what does the amount of times you manage to attack per turn have anything to do with creativity? There's a huge difference between doing 55 damage with a grenade and tossing it in a way that the worm is launched to a spot you can kill him afterwards taking advantage of piling and turn advantage. Not everyone does a display of creativity every turn, doesn't mean it's not there.

Sure its there, in tiny doses. Its less creativity, more accuracy, its hard to be creative with indestructible terrain. Sure, you may need to be creative in shopper sometimes, but these situations are few and far between, compared to default schemes, compared to Team17.

It's a bad map for leagues because some people have mastered in stupid amounts. But I think you underestimate the depth of this map.

"Mastered" the map? Exactly how can you master dogma city shopping? Sure you can be aware of "risk/reward" hides as you say, yet most players (whether default playing or not) can scan a map at a glance and tell instantly were the "risk/reward" hides are, its not like its a big secret, or something you only discover after years of playing the same map, you can tell instantly whats gong on in a map just by looking at it.

There are actually a couple of risk reward hides that require very precise knocks and can also allow perfect pixel blocks. Dogma City is a map were a good shopper can really shine against a not so good now, again, by abusing little map gimmicks that aren't good suited for league play.

I wont deny that, (although city shopping is still a very basic/boring map). Rope knocks are a default skill? I consider rope knocks to be a roping skill, rope knocks are most apparent in... again, roper, more so than any default scheme. Sure you rope knock in intermediate , but not rope rope rope rope rope knock (full power rope).

You seem to assume the roper can just as easily petrol block or use a full damage flamethrower as the defaulter.

Yes I do. There is nothing hard about dropping a petrol bomb to block a worm, or firing up a worm against a wall with the flamethrower, again, this is basic worms knowledge that you learn in your first months of play. These are not default specific skills, these are basic general skills.

There is no trend on TUS that shows the better defaulters win against the worse defaulters in shopper, if there was a trend then you would have a point, however there is no trend.

My point is you claimed that the better defaulter will beat the worse defaulter in shopper, when there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support this. Like I said its 50/50 assuming both players have their BASIC knowledge of how to use weapons down.

[Aerox]

I wont deny that, (although city shopping is still a very basic/boring map). Rope knocks are a default skill? I consider rope knocks to be a roping skill, rope knocks are most apparent in... again, roper, more so than any default scheme. Sure you rope knock in intermediate , but not rope rope rope rope rope knock (full power rope).

There's probably more total rope knocks in any regular intermediate game than there is on a roper, at least meaningful ones. In intermediate, like in Shopper, it's a creative skill, it facilitates kills sometimes. In roper it's much more of just touching the worm because you want him to get out of a hard hide or whatever, were he falls is hardly relevant since all you want is to attack. This is why piling is a much more demanding skill in default (intermediate) and in shopper. To much more extent in intermediate, were clever knocking can get you really far. That's a game changer, you can turn a great hide into a kill opportunity if your opponent can't picture a potential knock and plop from the hide he is about to reach. You're not just roping to the crate and oh shit I can't hit him there I'll knock him just enough so I can get  a hit in.

Yes I do. There is nothing hard about dropping a petrol bomb to block a worm

If you're hiding in a drill hole.

[NAiL]

There's probably more total rope knocks in any regular intermediate scheme than there is on a roper. In intermediate, like in Shopper, it's a creative skill, it facilitates kills sometimes. In roper it's much more of just touching the worm because you want him to get out of a hard hide or whatever, were he falls is hardly relevant since all you want is to attack. This is why piling is a much more demanding skill in default (intermediate) and in shopper.

I forgot about inter, I edited my post before you replied. I still dont think that this is relevant to your argument especially when in the days you talk about playing shopper with chicken (Ce etc), intermediate was played at nowhere near the level of skill it is played at today, it was hardly played competitively at all, if at all.

Where the worm ends up after you knock IS relevant in roper if you are going for fall damage, yes knocks need to be more precise and are more frequent in shopper, yet this is a roping skill, a roping skill found in defaults, yet a roping skill nonetheless.

If you're hiding in a drill hole.

Drill holes do not exist on indestructible maps.

There is no trend on TUS that shows the better defaulters win against the worse defaulters in shopper, if there was a trend then you would have a point, however there is no trend.

Any thoughts about that?

[Aerox]

Drill holes do not exist on indestructible maps.

You genuinely didn't get what I meant with that? I trust a roper that has never had any experience with petrol beyond knowing what it does to be able to block a worm on a cave or "room", but I'm sure that in your experience playing shoppers you're aware that petrol blocking can happen in a bunch of non obvious places.

Where the worm ends up after you knock IS relevant in roper if you are going for fall damage, yes knocks need to be more precise and are more frequent in shopper, yet this is a roping skill, a roping skill found in defaults, yet a roping skill nonetheless.

Roping skill is not Roper skill. Roping skill existed before Ropers. RR requires roping skill but they're definitely not the same skills required to play Roper.

There is no trend on TUS that shows the better defaulters win against the worse defaulters in shopper, if there was a trend then you would have a point, however there is no trend.

That is not definite data is it? It could be explained by many factors, like that many people learn the game by playing Shoppers, it's many people's first "wormnet" scheme and that. But even if you could somehow draw a definite connection between that and my theory not being true the data would still be somewhat invalid because we're assuming, when debating, the hypothetical that the maps used meet our criteria of league standards, and this is not happening right now in TUS, at least not constantly, so ultimately there are too many variables in play to be able to judge based on TUS ratings. At least, this particular case.

[franz]

And even if these 'Scheme Classes' do ever get decided upon, they would likely continue to be controversial because we've already seen many heated responses arguing against them --> and all this for what?  Would it really drastically change what we're seeing now?  Would it really be worth the trouble?

again, these arguments about which 'Schemes' belong to which 'Classes' will likely never end. even if an executive decision was made by MI, whatever possible benefit these 'Scheme Classes' bring can't possibly be worth all this trouble.

[Aerox]

again, these arguments about which 'Schemes' belong to which 'Classes' will likely never end. even if an executive decision was made by MI, whatever possible benefit these 'Scheme Classes' bring can't possibly be worth all this trouble.

The proposal of change came from TUS directly. If a change is due at least let's make sure things like newbie bashing, avoiding and scheme specializing doesn't happen in the all around league, you might see it as too much trouble designing systems that stop these things from happening, I'm trying to give you one.

[Peja]

the fact people giving heated responses cant be a factor to stop a debate. some people keep trying to cut down a conversation about how to improfe the league. finnaly we talk about something useful and related to our league. thats nice, so let people talk, share ideas. it isnt essential something will be changed after this. but its essential to do this discussions, cause otherwise we stagnate.

[franz]

the fact people giving heated responses cant be a factor to stop a debate. some people keep trying to cut down a conversation about how to improfe the league. finnaly we talk about something useful and related to our league. thats nice, so let people talk, share ideas. it isnt essential something will be changed after this. but its essential to do this discussions, cause otherwise we stagnate.

that's fair, feel free to continue refining these Scheme Classes. I didn't want all discussions to stop completely.

My point was that even if an agreement or compromise happens, we don't even know if this overall idea is even better or worse, marginally or drastically.

[NAiL]

@ peja: sorry m8, thread has been well and truly hijacked however there are 2 or 3 other threads with regards to league changes right now, not that you need to stop posting in this one either.

You genuinely didn't get what I meant with that? I trust a roper that has never had any experience with petrol beyond knowing what it does to be able to block a worm on a cave or "room", but I'm sure that in your experience playing shoppers you're aware that petrol blocking can happen in a bunch of non obvious places.

Yes I got what you meant by that, regardless as to whether or not the petrol block is obvious, its dropping a weapon from a rope, the physicality is the same as an "obvious" petrol drop. Sure, the better defaulter may spot a "non obvious" petrol block whilst his non-experienced-in-default counterpart may not, however this is such a small detail, and a such a rare occurrence that it is not a relevant supporting point to the argument; "the better defaulter wins in shopper". "Non obvious" petrol blocks are not something you associate with general shopper play. A non obvious petrol block is attributed to creativity, I didn't deny creativity existed in shopper I said that creativity is minimal in shopper.

Like I keep saying, you do not win most shoper games because of minor discrepancies like "non obvious petrol blocks", most shopper games, in fact the overwhelming majority of shopper games are won due to the loser falling from rope during his turn, failing to attack or failing to hide.

Roping skill is not Roper skill. Roping skill existed before Ropers. RR requires roping skill but they're definitely not the same skills required to play Roper.

What I said was rope knocking is a roping skill. Its a roping skill, defaults require roping skill, yet this is not a default specific skill. This is a skill shared between the two, yet it is a roping skill.

In the days you talked about playing shopper, when would you rope knock in a default scheme for the league? You wouldnt beacause you dont rope knock in elite or Team17. Its only in the last half decade in which Intermediate has taken off that a link between rope knocking in default schemes and shopper can be drawn.

Yes, you are right to say rope knocking is also a default skill, however this is one of FEW default skills linking shopper and defaults. This is my argument; that default skills found in both shopper and defaults are few and far between, they are minimal.

Its funny how in your attempt to explain why you think the better defaulter is the better shopper player, the best examples of default skills found in shopper are "non obvious petrol blocks" and rope knocking. Its funny because in your "day" (the days when you played shopper in Ce) rope knocking was not even a skill associated with default schemes at all because the only default scheme that incorporates rope knocking (intermediate), was not played in your day, at least not at a competitive level.

That is not definite data is it? It could be explained by many factors, like that many people learn the game by playing Shoppers, it's many people's first "wormnet" scheme and that. But even if you could somehow draw a definite connection between that and my theory not being true the data would still be somewhat invalid because we're assuming, when debating, the hypothetical that the maps used meet our criteria of league standards, and this is not happening right now in TUS, at least not constantly, so ultimately there are too many variables in play to be able to judge based on TUS ratings. At least, this particular case.

EXACTLY.

Like you said, people start by playing shoppers, they learn how to use the weapons by playing shoppers, they learn how to rope knock in shoppers, they learn all the necessary skills required to win a game of shopper against a player of any skill level.... IN SHOPPERS! Aside from the rare (so rare that they are irrelevant) details like "non obvious petrol blocks", a shopper player needs no default experience to beat another player in that scheme. In fact, seeing as "non obvious petrol blocks" (and ALL other details) are possible in shopper if the map allows, it makes sense that the shopper only player will also discover these things in due course and ascertain the same attention to detail in shopper as the defaulter, without having to have played years worth of default schemes.

The fact that there is no correlation proving that the better defaulter will win the shopper supports this view. Its not like a scheme like Team17, where the better defaulter will generally beat the shopper player and there is a trend to support this.

Your original argument was that shopper was identical to Team17 bar a few differences, then I think you accepted that shopper is way off being on a parr with Team17 in terms of the amount of defaulting knowledge and skill required, and now you're saying that default knowledge is prominent and also relevant in shopper so long as the map is properly designed.

I would agree that Shopper, out of all the roping schemes requires the most "default" knowledge, however it is not the sort of knowledge that can only be discovered with years of default playing. To simplify, you can learn everything you need to know about shopper (in order to beat any player), by just playing shopper alone. There are no skills that you could not learn from just playing shopper alone as opposed to playing both schemes.

I stand by the fact that shopper is a scheme primarily based on consistent roping and hiding coupled with "common sense" attacks in the vast majority of games. You still have not said anything about the original point you made about shopper being "extremely similar to Team17 bar a few differences" and I am wondering why, when I feel I have explained in more than enough detail why the similarities between Shopper, Team17 and other default schemes are minimal.

[Anubis]

the fact people giving heated responses cant be a factor to stop a debate. some people keep trying to cut down a conversation about how to improfe the league. finnaly we talk about something useful and related to our league. thats nice, so let people talk, share ideas. it isnt essential something will be changed after this. but its essential to do this discussions, cause otherwise we stagnate.

that's fair, feel free to continue refining these Scheme Classes. I didn't want all discussions to stop completely.

My point was that even if an agreement or compromise happens, we don't even know if this overall idea is even better or worse, marginally or drastically.

Actually, Worms:A competitive side is so low populated compared to other online games that I wonder why we have such a hard time to test things out. Test new systems (or schemes) out for a season, if it doesn't work, well just change back. There is no money involved and the fame you get by winning a worms league nowadays has little to no impact since we all know who are the real champs if they would want to do it.

I mean seriously, what is the problem if MI is even offering us to test out all the different things we came up with already. It's really sad to see so many ideas fade away because "theoretically" it could be worse. Well "theoretically" these changes could prove to be a lot better, just test it, damnit! :p

Back in the days no League Admin actually said: Let's hear your opinion, I will code it!

[Aerox]

Back in the days no League Admin actually said: Let's hear your opinion, I will code it!

HHC himself was a total dictator in WL.

[KoreanRedDragon]

If you guys are about ready to move on from debating Ropa's choice of words when defending the idea that T17 and Shopper belong in the same class, I was going to point out how the following actually sounds like it speaks in favour of the system he and Mab propose:

So yeh its 50/50, assuming both players are at decent level, the better defaulter has no greater advantage in shopper than the better roper as MOST of the default skills you learn in defaults are NOT translated into shopper, MINIMAL similarities in default skills are shared between defaults and shopper. Falling from your rope during a turn is game changing, picking up a flamethrower instead of a dynamite is game changing, starting first or second is game changing. Shopper does not require as many default skills as you seem to believe.

I would agree that Shopper, out of all the roping schemes requires the most "default" knowledge, however it is not the sort of knowledge that can only be discovered with years of default playing. To simplify, you can learn everything you need to know about shopper (in order to beat any player), by just playing shopper alone. There are no skills that you could not learn from just playing shopper alone as opposed to playing both schemes.

You'll notice that as the classes were proposed here on TUS, the five of them aren't just there to randomly group two schemes together, they deliberately do it in such a way that we have two ground scheme classes, two roping classes and the controversial T17/Shopper one in between.

The Artillery class: BnG and Hysteria.
The Default class: Elite and Intermediate.
The Shopping class: Team17 and Shopper.
The (Battle?) Roping class: WxW and Roper.
The (Pure?) Roping class: RR and TTRR (maybe Warmer someday too, if we're able to find a way to compete at it without judges).

The first five (four without Intermediate) schemes range from having nothing to do with roping (BnG, Hyst) to having a bit to do with it (Elite, Inter, T17). The second five (four if you don't count TTRR separately) go from requiring moderate roping skill (Shopper, maybe WxW) to requiring a lot of it (WxW on harder maps, Roper, RR). You can see the steady progression, right? The aim of this isn't so much to find schemes that are essentially the same*, but rather to cover all the skillsets that an all-around WA league should require of its players, while keeping things fair so that neither an expert defaulter nor a pro roper will have an advantage at the end of the day. With that balance in mind, doesn't the middle one of the classes feel like it belongs there to you? It does to me, after literally years of thinking about this.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not actually sure that this is the way to go for TUS. These ideas, when they were being discussed, came in package with a lot of other assumptions. Namely that there would be a set of perfect scheme files and rules for them that we'd be able to enforce, a way of ensuring fairness when it comes to maps, a good way of awarding players who keep their scheme picks balanced while also giving scheme specialists things to be proud of and so on. They are all things that would require not only a lot of work from the people running everything, but also a pretty damn high level of communication within the community, just so everyone taking part was on the same page regarding important matters. In essence, they are ideas meant for a slightly different WormNet than we're faced with today. I know MI intends to tackle some of that with TUS 2.0, but that only means he's going to have even less time and energy to try and make everything else fall into place perfectly. So I guess what I'm saying is, even if grouping league schemes in this way turns out not to be the solution for TUS for whatever reason, it is something that a significant portion of dedicated WA players believes in; don't knock it until you've really thought about it.

* When you put it like that, it's no surprise everyone's blood pressure went up.

[sock]

Back in the days no League Admin actually said: Let's hear your opinion, I will code it!

HHC himself was a total dictator in WL.

so were you minus the tator