@ peja: sorry m8, thread has been well and truly hijacked however there are 2 or 3 other threads with regards to league changes right now, not that you need to stop posting in this one either.
You genuinely didn't get what I meant with that? I trust a roper that has never had any experience with petrol beyond knowing what it does to be able to block a worm on a cave or "room", but I'm sure that in your experience playing shoppers you're aware that petrol blocking can happen in a bunch of non obvious places.
Yes I got what you meant by that, regardless as to whether or not the petrol block is obvious, its dropping a weapon from a rope, the physicality is the same as an "obvious" petrol drop. Sure, the better defaulter may spot a "non obvious" petrol block whilst his non-experienced-in-default counterpart may not, however this is such a small detail, and a such a rare occurrence that it is not a relevant supporting point to the argument; "the better defaulter wins in shopper". "Non obvious" petrol blocks are not something you associate with
general shopper play. A non obvious petrol block is attributed to creativity, I didn't deny creativity existed in shopper I said that creativity is
minimal in shopper.
Like I keep saying, you do not win most shoper games because of minor discrepancies like "non obvious petrol blocks", most shopper games, in fact the
overwhelming majority of shopper games are won due to the loser falling from rope during his turn, failing to attack or failing to hide.
Roping skill is not Roper skill. Roping skill existed before Ropers. RR requires roping skill but they're definitely not the same skills required to play Roper.
What I said was
rope knocking is a roping skill. Its a roping skill, defaults require roping skill, yet this is not a default specific skill. This is a skill shared between the two, yet it is a roping skill.
In the days you talked about playing shopper, when would you rope knock in a default scheme for the league? You wouldnt beacause you dont rope knock in elite or Team17. Its only in the last half decade in which Intermediate has taken off that a link between rope knocking in default schemes and shopper can be drawn.
Yes, you are right to say rope knocking is also a default skill, however this is one of FEW default skills linking shopper and defaults. This is my argument; that default skills found in both shopper and defaults are few and far between, they are
minimal.
Its funny how in your attempt to explain why you think the better defaulter is the better shopper player, the best examples of default skills found in shopper are "non obvious petrol blocks" and rope knocking. Its funny because in your "day" (the days when you played shopper in Ce) rope knocking was not even a skill associated with default schemes at all because the only default scheme that incorporates rope knocking (intermediate), was not played in your day, at least not at a competitive level.
That is not definite data is it? It could be explained by many factors, like that many people learn the game by playing Shoppers, it's many people's first "wormnet" scheme and that. But even if you could somehow draw a definite connection between that and my theory not being true the data would still be somewhat invalid because we're assuming, when debating, the hypothetical that the maps used meet our criteria of league standards, and this is not happening right now in TUS, at least not constantly, so ultimately there are too many variables in play to be able to judge based on TUS ratings. At least, this particular case.
EXACTLY.
Like you said, people start by playing shoppers, they learn how to use the weapons by playing shoppers, they learn how to rope knock in shoppers, they learn all the necessary skills required to win a game of shopper
against a player of any skill level.... IN SHOPPERS! Aside from the rare (so rare that they are irrelevant) details like "non obvious petrol blocks", a shopper player needs no default experience to beat another player in that scheme. In fact, seeing as "non obvious petrol blocks" (and ALL other details) are possible in shopper if the map allows, it makes sense that the shopper only player will also discover these things in due course and ascertain the same attention to detail in shopper as the defaulter, without having to have played years worth of default schemes.
The fact that there is no correlation proving that the better defaulter will win the shopper supports this view. Its not like a scheme like Team17, where the better defaulter will generally beat the shopper player and there
is a trend to support this.
Your original argument was that shopper was identical to Team17 bar a few differences, then I think you accepted that shopper is way off being on a parr with Team17 in terms of the amount of defaulting knowledge and skill required, and now you're saying that default knowledge is prominent and also relevant in shopper so long as the map is properly designed.
I would agree that Shopper, out of all the roping schemes requires the most "default" knowledge, however it is not the sort of knowledge that can only be discovered with years of default playing. To simplify, you can learn everything you need to know about shopper (in order to beat any player), by just playing shopper alone. There are no skills that you could not learn from just playing shopper alone as opposed to playing both schemes.
I stand by the fact that shopper is a scheme primarily based on consistent roping and hiding coupled with "common sense" attacks in the
vast majority of games. You still have not said anything about the original point you made about shopper being "extremely similar to Team17 bar a few differences" and I am wondering why, when I feel I have explained in more than enough detail why the similarities between Shopper, Team17 and other default schemes are minimal.