Updating rules on scheme sites

[Anubis]

"if you break it more then once, seems your doing it on purpose, or kill your opponent the game will be void or given to the victim"

Fool me once shame on me fool me twice shame on you is not a good rule. Penalties need to be so crushing that no matter what the benefit is, it should always be a disadvantage for the cowing player, even the initial cow.

I am not sure if "seems your doing it on purpose" is a fitting rule for anything. It just leaves so much room for interpretation and ultimately bias and drama. A cow is a cow, it should not matter if it's on purpose or not. If a cow was so insignificant that the outcome wasn't altered a lot or at all, it is still a cow and the cowing player should be at the mercy of the cowed player. For me, as a competitive player, I don't care if my opponent cowed on accident or not. If I feel like it changed the game I will call him out on it, and the league should support me, because HE did the mistake not me. The only institute that should invalidate an obvious cow is the cowed player because he's the one affected by the cow. The mod should just validate the cow if the cowing player feels like he did not cow, not if the cow was significant/on purpose or not, that should not be the foundation of a rule-set.

So much cows, I am starting to moo.

Btw: This is the way I see rules in competitive environments, and I have seen them be strict and unforgiving for the cowing player in many major leagues.

[style]

"if you break it more then once, seems your doing it on purpose, or kill your opponent the game will be void or given to the victim"

Fool me once shame on me fool me twice shame on you is not a good rule. Penalties need to be so crushing that no matter what the benefit is, it should always be a disadvantage for the cowing player, even the initial cow.

Lmfao, that fits perfectly to the situation we just had. I don't want this thread turning into something else but I'd like to hear some thoughts about that situation. Playback at 20:00, read chat etc.. I told em to take this lame win and I don't really care about it cuz I'm sick n tired of discussing about such dumb garbage stuff. It's just useless, especially since it seems that nobody has the permission to give some decree.

But this will be important for future happenings and rules etc, imo.. 
Btw: Is there still cba if SD started after some1 fell and didnt get his cr8?

D:!

[avirex]

i took cr8 b4 attack, that was not a cow (regardless if it was SD or not)

my last turn i did cow, i admitted to that, it was not intentional, and i believe i had time to attack by dropping down and a simple wall touch, but regardless if i could touch the wall, or if it was not intentional, it was a cow.

i took the proper penalty... i even did a w2w to be fair, before i went to be desired hide.  :X

wasn't lame.

[Anubis]

"if you break it more then once, seems your doing it on purpose, or kill your opponent the game will be void or given to the victim"

Fool me once shame on me fool me twice shame on you is not a good rule. Penalties need to be so crushing that no matter what the benefit is, it should always be a disadvantage for the cowing player, even the initial cow.

Lmfao, that fits perfectly to the situation we just had. I don't want this thread turning into something else but I'd like to hear some thoughts about that situation. Playback at 20:00, read chat etc.. I told em to take this lame win and I don't really care about it cuz I'm sick n tired of discussing about such dumb garbage stuff. It's just useless, especially since it seems that nobody has the permission to give some decree.

But this will be important for future happenings and rules etc, imo.. 
Btw: Is there still cba if SD started after some1 fell and didnt get his cr8?

D:!

The rules clearly state that you have to touch both walls when SD starts making avis turn a cow, indeed. If collecting a cr8 counts as touching both walls at SD it should be stated in the rules.

"touch both walls instead at sudden death"

[style]

Roper

If you break a rule more than once, seems you are doing it on purpose or kill your opponent, the game will be void or given to the victim.

THIS! is completely bullshit..

No cow can be forgiven in a roper since every single health point is urgently important. Just think about it: 1 hit of a mine/nade/zook is around -40, cr8s are only +20.. in case of a skip it doesn't make any difference for the victim cuz it'll stay disadvantageous for him/her.. Who has actually the permisson to say it was on or was not on purpose? It's not that obvious all the time and most humans are pretty damn good liars and can make things look a lot like they actually aint are.. If you drop a nade randomly from right top in last 2 secs to make use of retreat time and it hits the opponent worm that stays left down in the corner, it's accidently! But - f.e. in that replay (sorry avi) it wasn't by accident and such attacks should be punished hard. Especially since it was an important, game deciding and definitely avoidable, non-regular hit..

Such hits should be punished the same way like in bng, where HP is the most important thing.. -> attack yourself (..so you get as much damaged as you did to your opponent,...)

[Anubis]

Different schemes need different penalties, no doubt about that.

Cows in bng are a whole different thing, not only is HP important also the destruction of land/hides/movement based on cowed attacks alter the game irreversible which makes them pretty hard to find a fitting penalty. The guy that got cowed will always think "what if...". What if he didn't cow me and didn't destroy my hide/push my worm, sure he did XY dmg to himself but still, the outcome is distorted.

You can find many situations in every scheme where there is no "correct" penalty for it. Obviously the best way to solve penalty dilemmas would be if we could playback replays at time y, where y is before the cow turn.

[TheKomodo]

I don't think we will find a perfect solution, considering these rules are for things that rarely happen we will have to make some kind of compromise.

Regarding BnG

The best solution i've seen so far is someone who cows and does damage attempting to deal the same damage to themselves, however, saying that in BnG what people tend to do now isn't attack themselves but rather say for example "I die on 40hp" for that very reason that Anubis mentioned about ruining hides.

This IS the best solution i've seen so far, it tends to work most of the time but the drawback to that is if the player who was cowed feels they are now at a disadvantage because they were cowed in a way that lost them a good hide / tactical advantage, so because of that I would suggest the punishment being at the mercy of the victim, if the player who was cowed feels like their hide was sabotaged then they can force their opponent to do the same by attacking themselves, if the victim feels it was an innocent accident and didn't ruin their hide / tactics then they can just agree to subtract the same amount of health from their worm so that they die on said health.

You could then argue, that "lame players" could always just say their hide was ruined and want their opponent to attack themselves, and to be honest I believe that's fair, I feel the same way as Anubis, if you cowed you should be punished, regardless of it being a mistake or not you should accept the consequences and if it helps to put the victims mind at rest then I think that's fine.

At least if the rules were more like this, not only would it help reduce complaints, but you would be surprised how many players can fall out with each other and stop being friends because they argue over a cow, and the reason they argue is because there is wiggle room(loopholes) in the rules, if there is a definitive answer for as many situations as possible, then people won't think they can argue out of the punishment/requirement for their actions.

So instead of "yeah but rules don't say I have to" "FU you cowed you need to be punished" "don't say FU to me the rules don't actually say..."

It would be just "Ok you done that, now do this..." "Ok sure."

Personally I feel if rules must be longer in order to have no, or less loopholes, do it!

I have no interest in leaving loopholes in rules because "other people are too lazy to read", if they can't be bothered to read, then they are the ones who will suffer, good!

[Senator]

"if you break it more then once, seems your doing it on purpose, or kill your opponent the game will be void or given to the victim"

Fool me once shame on me fool me twice shame on you is not a good rule. Penalties need to be so crushing that no matter what the benefit is, it should always be a disadvantage for the cowing player, even the initial cow.

I am not sure if "seems your doing it on purpose" is a fitting rule for anything. It just leaves so much room for interpretation and ultimately bias and drama.

A skip is not sufficient penalty for the 1st cow or what are u saying?

The way I see that rule (I didn't write it): if u cow, u have to skip. if u repeat a cow, u have to skip but mods can still void or give the game to the victim (if the victim didn't win). so u can't do what avi suggested (cow and skip every other turn).

"seems your doing it on purpose" = if u don't touch any walls in WxW and go for an attack, mods can void or give the game to the victim even if u did skip after that. You have to always skip after a cow but u can get extra punishment if u did it clearly on purpose.

btw, what is penalty for using a glitch in T17, Hysteria, Elite? "You are not allowed to attack the next turn" isn't any punishment in a scheme like T17. And what is punishment for rope knocking in Elite? "You are not allowed to attack the next turn" or "You are not allowed to attack that worm until that worm has had a chance to move" (T17 style)?

[avirex]

hyst, t17, and elite glitches do not seem to be a big problem, mainly because if you exploit those possible glitches, there is no way to pretend as if it was a mistake lol...

for example: if you go on the roof in a t17, it was very much on purpose.

if you knock in elite to gain advantage (and it was clearly no accident) it was most likely on purpose...

i have not seen many situations where ppl exploit this, but again, i have not monitored all complaints, so i dont know, the complaint mods would have a better knowledge if rules like this need to be made (either way, i suppose it could not hurt to come up with a definitive solution)

can we get back to dt's roper game with stylez(slk)  i do realize i did one cow, when i shadowed down to make attack, rather then a simple drop/spike down to touch wall... im really not sure how he can get off saying i did it on purpose, anyone who has experience in sudden death roper im sure has seen this situation more than once, its mostly a mistake, not on purpose.

but that is regardless, it really does not matter if i did it on purpose or not... the fact is i cowed, and i accepted penalty for that... the question i guess lies with in the first cow he claimed i did.

Anubis says that the rules quote that in sudden death, you must touch both walls before attack... i was always under the assumption (for over 10 years) that if there is a cr8 on the map, you collect the cr8 before attack...

examples number 1: what happens when the game does not officially declare sudden death, but yet the crate do no drop?? is it ok to attack with no duties before hand?

example number 2: what happens if i had done a w2w, and then made an attack, and i collected my crate in my retreat... dont you think i would have people hollering at me that i did not collect a crate before attack?

so, does this mean when your opponent makes a mistake and does not collect his crate right before sudden death, you should have 2 duties before an attack? i dont believe that is right.

the rules definitely need to be more clear in this situation, what is everyone else's thought about this situation?? again, if your an experienced roper i am sure you have seen this situation before, even though its sudden death, when a cr8 is still on the map, people would normally collect the cr8 and then attack... i thought that was a pretty common practice...

well, i guess this game needs to be taken to the complaint forum now, i thought it was an open and shut situation, by according to anubis there is some room for debate.

ill open a complaint thread, but this should still be discussed in the "updating rules" thread. thnx

[Anubis]

Well, the rules say you have to touch both walls, with no exception written in there. All that means is that you never read TUS roper rules and went with common sense that you accumulated over the years. I don't know what I would have done, probably go for the cr8 and w2w since I never read the TUS roper rules either. Maybe MI could introduce a quiz in which every member of TUS has to know the rules of all classic schemes in order to report games?

[TheKomodo]

Well, the rules say you have to touch both walls, with no exception written in there.

I'll reply to that with what I said in another thread:

You guys question things that have been clear for more than a decade. When the gong sounds,  you have to w2w no matter how many crates there are in the map lol. You do wall to wall, if there is even a gift of health around, good for you.

Actually that's not entirely correct the rules are not 100% sound.

Crate before attack (CBA): You must collect a health crate before attacking your opponent (touch both walls instead at sudden death). If you break this rule you aren't allowed to attack the next turn.

The rule is collect a crate before attacking your opponent, if there is still a crate on the map, then this applies.

There are 2 sides of the arguement here:

1) It does say "touch both walls instead at sudden death" however this can be argued that there was a crate left so you did follow the rule of "crate before attack".

2) It does say "touch both walls instead at sudden death" which one can argue must be followed regardless of crates remaining.

Both sides of the arguement are actually perfectly valid, however personally I would accept collecting any remaining crates then attacking as acceptable because of the fact the touch both walls instead at sudden death part doesn't specifically state this should still be followed if there are crates remaining.

If the decision was mine to update this rule, I would allow for CBA to be acceptable even after SD begins if there are crates left, after all it's the players responsibility to collect their own crates, and they should accept the consequences of their failures.

[Anubis]

Well, who wrote the rules? Just ask him what the intention was of that rule section, if it is just worded badly it can easily be updated. Or was this rule just copy&paste from previous leagues? xD

[TheKomodo]

Well I don't think it matters who wrote the rule and what the intention was if we are in the process of updating the rules anyway.

However i'd still be curious to find the answer

[Anubis]

Well I don't think it matters who wrote the rule and what the intention was if we are in the process of updating the rules anyway.

However i'd still be curious to find the answer

A change-log would be nice too btw.

[avirex]

Crate before attack (CBA): You must collect a health crate before attacking your opponent (touch both walls instead at sudden death). If you break this rule you aren't allowed to attack the next turn.


Anubis, i do see your point... but you have to keep in mind that the sudden death rule, is in the category of "Creat before attack (CBA):"  so don't you think that the crate before attack comes before the w2w if applicable?