The Big Religion/God Debate

[Mablak]

It's hard to say in what way consciousness exists spatially, but it's clearly something generated by the brain. If you damage part of the brain, you will lose corresponding memories or thought processes in your consciousness. If a lot of the brain is damaged, you lose even more. Going further, it only makes sense to say that when the brain is fully destroyed, so is your consciousness.

You could say it exists outside the body in the sense that, if your brain is recreated, so is your consciousness. But you have to have that brain existing somewhere for consciousness to exist.

[Free]

I should pick my words better as they are very limited in meaning still.

For me brain-consciousness and consciousness is different thing, other is created by brain and other I like to call "spirit" or as Pierre Teilhard de Chardin puts it "spirit-matter" (if I understand him correctly). What I'm saying is that I believe that when we "die" we are fully conscious about it and some "other" consciousness than brain-consciousness becomes dominant. Call it God, Spirit, Jizz.. whatever.. they are only words.

"There is neither spirit nor matter in the world; the stuff of the universe is spirit-matter. No other substance but this could produce the human molecule....Biologists or philosophers cannot conceive a biosphere or noosphere because they are unwilling to abandon a certain narrow conception of individuality. Nevertheless, the step must be taken."

He has interesting theories about evolution, God and cyberspace for someone who might be interested: http://world.std.com/~snet/mind.htm

Also My Big Theory Of Everything or My Big TOE by Thomas Campbell is very interesting read for those who like to learn about "mystical" subjects with scientific explanations. It's a hefty read, ~800 pages but it can change lives.

You can read it free from Google Books: http://books.google.fi/books?id=RYHtBPiZVgsC&printsec=frontcover&hl=fi&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

In the end, nobody "knows" for sure (yet) and it's a matter of Faith.

[Desetroyah]

We're not humans experiencing spirituality, we're spirits experiencing humanity.

I do believe that Conciousness exists outside the body and that we are "everlasting". It's only scary if you don't trust that you were made from LOVE.

Its scary if you dont have the balls to realise there's nothing "beyond" what exists around us and that we're only just "elements" mostly comprised of CO2 and that this life is all you get. People with no courage resort to religion since "faith" is easy to achieve if you "know" someone's gonna take care of you in the "afterlife".

1 life is all we have, we're creatures just like everything else on this planet, no one "made" us, and we do not need someone's approval to live our lives, our judgement, as shaped by our upbringing and our natural predisposition (genes)  is what we have in order to make sense of the world and coninside happily with the planet and other human beings. Hence, there need not be anyone's "rules" and "guidelines to live" in order to be happy and have ppl around us be happy as well.

I'm pretty sure I'll hear all sorts of religious junk now so I'll try stay out of this, usually ppl are victims of their upbringing or cultural influences or even their own predisposition/"weakness".

Things are simple, this is what we have, it is "scary" if you need to feel someone's always above your head watching you and making sure you get punished. All it takes is a clear head and bravery to enjoy this life and have fun, without restraints, punishment and ppl telling you what to do, common sense is all you need.

Peace.

Here's my take on faith and religion, ppl bypassed it

[Free]

I did read it but for me, I'm not talking about religion AT ALL.

[Abnaxus]

What is scary, it's that you all claim for one thing or another without even knowing what you're talking about.

None of us (on the earth) knows the answer and the only way to know is death (weither we "live" and understand or die and "can't know": it's still an answer).

So talking about it is one thing, claiming it is the truth is just dumb.

PS: 777 ... Bar !!!

[DarkOne]

[Free]

What is scary, it's that you all claim for one thing or another without even knowing what you're talking about.

None of us (on the earth) knows the answer and the only way to know is death (weither we "live" and understand or die and "can't know": it's still an answer).

So talking about it is one thing, claiming it is the truth is just dumb.

What is scary is that YOU claim that we ALL claim for everything to be certain when we express our opinions. Many of us here obviously are just talking and talking about our own opinions and beliefs. You claim that nobody can know for sure before we die, and it's a pretty hefty CLAIM also m8

Edit: What actually is even funnier is that by claiming we know for sure when we die you are implying that there is "something" that is aware that we died.

[Abnaxus]

Not all, but some.

And telling nobody can know is some kind of logical fact.
You have never seen god to proove it, and scientists have never given proofs about no afterlife (they have some thoughs and a start of a proof, but not a real one).
And especially, what if we all are back to a single string after death (string from string theory) ? (That's a dumb example, just to know there are infinite possibilities we can't erase.) 

To finish, about the "aware that we died", read the parenthesis, I knew someone would call that and prevented it. 

[Cueshark]

What is scary, it's that you all claim for one thing or another without even knowing what you're talking about.

None of us (on the earth) knows the answer and the only way to know is death (weither we "live" and understand or die and "can't know": it's still an answer).

So talking about it is one thing, claiming it is the truth is just dumb.

What is scary is that YOU claim that we ALL claim for everything to be certain when we express our opinions. Many of us here obviously are just talking and talking about our own opinions and beliefs. You claim that nobody can know for sure before we die, and it's a pretty hefty CLAIM also m8

Edit: What actually is even funnier is that by claiming we know for sure when we die you are implying that there is "something" that is aware that we died.

I agree.

I form my beliefs by looking at the evidence.

The evidence to me suggests that biologically we are all part of an infrastructure of different species on this planet.  We are all related to each other and we can see it for our own eyes by analysing DNA and see exactly how we are the genetic neighbour to all other animals and even plants.

When a spider dies do we think that it has a soul capable of transcending it's physical body?  Perhaps when our dog dies we believe it is now being taken care of by angels.  Perhaps when a human we love dies we all want to deny it has really ended, that there is something more.

Fact is though, we have a consciousness; a consciousness which is obviously the most sophisticated on this planet.  This consciousness is our specific view point on an arguably objective external reality and from the evidence available to me I believe that because we are obviously related genetically to other animals, our consciousness is also on the same genetic spectrum.  

A spider will still have a consciousness, it is less sophisticated but on a sliding scale it is still experiencing this planet and has the ability to navigate based on it's own obstacles and environment.

A dog will display behaviour that a human can understand.  A sad dog, a happy dog, etc.  We're made of the same stuff, the same elements.  Do we think a dog has a soul which goes on to become a better entity after it's death.  Do you think that of a mouse, or a slug or a fly?

Us humans are extremely arrogant.  We think this universe was designed around us.  Giving us an afterlife and depriving the poor slugs.  It's bollocks.  Let's get real and make the most of every day until it is our very last.

TL;DR - There is no afterlife.

[TheKomodo]

1 life is all we have, we're creatures just like everything else on this planet, no one "made" us, and we do not need someone's approval to live our lives, our judgement, as shaped by our upbringing and our natural predisposition (genes)  is what we have in order to make sense of the world and coninside happily with the planet and other human beings. Hence, there need not be anyone's "rules" and "guidelines to live" in order to be happy and have ppl around us be happy as well.

One of the most perfect paragraphs i've ever read in my life.

Especially the middle part, I consistently use this arguement in real life but no one f@#!ing gets it...

For me brain-consciousness and consciousness is different thing, other is created by brain and other I like to call "spirit" or as Pierre Teilhard de Chardin puts it "spirit-matter" (if I understand him correctly). What I'm saying is that I believe that when we "die" we are fully conscious about it and some "other" consciousness than brain-consciousness becomes dominant. Call it God, Spirit, Jizz.. whatever.. they are only words.

I respect your choice to believe this and everything, and please don't think I am having a dig at you I am not thinking any bad thoughts in your direction whatsoever, I am really curious to see your answer to the question that I must seriously ask, what would be the point?

For example, say your "opinion/belief/idea" was true, what would be the point? What could possibly happen that would justify this life? How could it be fair that some live longer than others, some are happier than others, some are more powerful than others etc...

Every single idea i've ever thought, and i've thought of thousands of possiblities, NONE of them are acceptable or worth it, this includes all possiblities of heaven/hell, spirits, super natural, re-incarnation etc...

Edit: And people who believe in ghosts, you are just f@#!ing cruel...

[Cueshark]

I must seriously ask, what would be the point?

Well for me the point is making the best possible use of my free time, enjoying it fully, gain the best enjoyment through interacting socially with other primates, enjoying my family and the special connections with my offspring.

My dad is well into his family tree and geneology and all that.  He often tells me about the lives of my ancestors.  One in particular my great great great grandfather or something crazy was a well known performer in music hall.  Even after all these decades have passed, memories and photographs have preserved his memory and immortalised him, made him transcend death into the fabric of reality.

Like you Komo when you create music and give it to the world.  That music will immortalise you.  You will live on through the memories people will have of you, perhaps you will make someone remember you on an emotional level, perhaps through your music.

A doctor will help others live.  That would give anyone purpose and meaning.

Anything you choose to do in your life time will be passed down and shared.  You are contributing to a gigantic pool which we all influence.  That to me is a point.  

Would you say Michael Jackson is dead?  Hell no.  David Hasslehoff and Chuck Norris.  They are memes.  A meme never dies and we are all little memes in a universe which doesn't give a shit about us.  The point is that we may not have an afterlife but we will still live on in other ways.

Lastly, as Richard Dawkins so amazingly puts it.  Instead of trying to summarise it, here's the quote from his book "Unweaving the Rainbow".

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Sahara. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively outnumbers the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here."

You're a lucky bastard Komo.  There's the point too.

 

[TheKomodo]

That isn't what I meant Cueshark, I pretty much agree with everything you said, but it has nothing to do with what I asked.

I meant, what happens to the person that dies after they die, not everything else.

Michael Jackson is dead, we will remember him, but not what I am talking about lol.

[Mablak]

Nice quote Cue, I've never read a book by Dawkins, only seen his talks.

But Free, you don't need to distinguish between brain-consciousness and consciousness, or as I think you mean, between body and mind (Cartesian dualism). Here's the thing, if there is some supernatural feature of the mind, how could we possibly communicate that? The supernatural by definition cannot interact with the natural. Consciousness can't be supernatural, because we know it exists, and is responsive to cause and effect. Alternatively, you could suppose that certain laws of the universe are suspended within our minds, but all that would mean is that those 'laws' weren't entirely correct, and would be revised to make it so that whatever is going on in the brain is actually natural.

I think what you're looking for is a way to describe the specialness of consciousness, but we don't need magic to do that. We don't need to elevate consciousness to some higher plane in order for it to be special, for example, rainbows still look cool despite knowing that they're the result of light refracting off droplets. The complexity and mystery of its physical basis, the brain, is good enough. Even if consciousness were magical in some way, what would that change? It's not going to alter our desires, motivations, intentions, or any of that.

[Cueshark]

Ok.  Well to answer the question which was nowhere in your post,  nothing happens.  We just die and disappear like other life on this planet.

[TheKomodo]

Ok.  Well to answer the question which was nowhere in your post,  nothing happens.  We just die and disappear like other life on this planet.

That's what I like about you, you get me