The Big Religion/God Debate

[DarkOne]

[...]i bet theres that one huge asteroid mofo, just on its way to bump earth into the right direction (sun). [...]

If we get hit by an asteroid that big, we won't live to tell a change in orbit anyway, regardless of whether it's to or from the sun

[Ramone]

I just have to share these:

[Cueshark]

I love you!  We've both been watching these and not discussing them?

I'm a big big SOS fan.

Sent Jon Boswell a couple of emails too.  Especially when Case for Mars came out.

[Cueshark]

"For God so love the world, that he give his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in Him, putting their faith and trust on him, they will not go to hell or devil, will never perish and will have everlasting life.

I can do everything through Christ who strengthens me. Philippians 4:13"

Ok, I'm not goding anyone.  And I don't want to offend anyone.

Gengar posted this in a public forum which therefore becomes open to critisicm.

When I hear that 20 thousand people are dead because a shit load of water drowned them, destroyed them without mercy, I don't need to be confused.  I don't believe in god.  I believe that we live on a fragile planet where stuff like this happens.  Events so catastrophic like the 170km wide meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs and left a HUGE imprint in the ground to prove it happened.

They ruled the planet, like we do now.  And then nothing.  Over huge periods of time crazy shit happens.  And minor events like the Japan earthquakes continue to kill masses of people at various times while the major catastrophies lie in wait.

Even dying from old age after a happy life is tragic to me, so 20 thousand lives cut short.  By an all-loving god???

I don't even want to think about the pain and suffering that this loving god unleashed on our planet so recently that the fires still burn.

Please let me publicly and respectfully disagree that 'God loves the world'.

It's a bit offensive to me in light of recent events that I read that kind of filth, but free speech is both our rights.

[TheKomodo]

"For God so love the world, that he give his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in Him, putting their faith and trust on him, they will not go to hell or devil, will never perish and will have everlasting life.

I can do everything through Christ who strengthens me. Philippians 4:13"

Ok, I'm not goding anyone.  And I don't want to offend anyone.

Gengar posted this in a public forum which therefore becomes open to critisicm.

When I hear that 20 thousand people are dead because a shit load of water drowned them, destroyed them without mercy, I don't need to be confused.  I don't believe in god.  I believe that we live on a fragile planet where stuff like this happens.  Events so catastrophic like the 170km wide meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs and left a HUGE imprint in the ground to prove it happened.

They ruled the planet, like we do now.  And then nothing.  Over huge periods of time crazy shit happens.  And minor events like the Japan earthquakes continue to kill masses of people at various times while the major catastrophies lie in wait.

Even dying from old age after a happy life is tragic to me, so 20 thousand lives cut short.  By an all-loving god???

I don't even want to think about the pain and suffering that this loving god unleashed on our planet so recently that the fires still burn.

Please let me publicly and respectfully disagree that 'God loves the world'.

It's a bit offensive to me in light of recent events that I read that kind of filth, but free speech is both our rights.

TOTALLY agree ! +1

[nino]

"For God so love the world, that he give his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in Him, putting their faith and trust on him, they will not go to hell or devil, will never perish and will have everlasting life.

I can do everything through Christ who strengthens me. Philippians 4:13"

Ok, I'm not goding anyone.  And I don't want to offend anyone.

Gengar posted this in a public forum which therefore becomes open to critisicm.

When I hear that 20 thousand people are dead because a shit load of water drowned them, destroyed them without mercy, I don't need to be confused.  I don't believe in god.  I believe that we live on a fragile planet where stuff like this happens.  Events so catastrophic like the 170km wide meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs and left a HUGE imprint in the ground to prove it happened.

They ruled the planet, like we do now.  And then nothing.  Over huge periods of time crazy shit happens.  And minor events like the Japan earthquakes continue to kill masses of people at various times while the major catastrophies lie in wait.

Even dying from old age after a happy life is tragic to me, so 20 thousand lives cut short.  By an all-loving god???

I don't even want to think about the pain and suffering that this loving god unleashed on our planet so recently that the fires still burn.

Please let me publicly and respectfully disagree that 'God loves the world'.

It's a bit offensive to me in light of recent events that I read that kind of filth, but free speech is both our rights.

TOTALLY agree ! +1

The king agree ! +1 and  +1

[ShyGuy]

coming from someone who has had 13 years of Catholic school education: if there is a god, it certainly isn't the one from the bible

[HHC]

Edit: sorry for the clumsiness of this post. It goes from A to D, back to B and straight to Y. My train of thought really is fragmented. Better read slowly and let everything sink in before you proceed onwards to the next line.



Alright, let's skip to the next conclusion. If Japan wasn't the result of divine intervention, but merely a necessary byproduct of human existence... then what does make life worthwhile?

If life equals NOTHING > birth > survival > suffering > death > NOTHING, then what exactly is it that keeps us reproducing?
In essence nothing, that's why the brain has given us 'game' to serve as distraction. Humour, sports, art, culture, microwaves, jobs, vacations, politics, wars... they are nothing else but distractions to keep us going. Part of them are given by nature (the ability to enjoy company or labour for example), and some is manmade (sports, politics, etc.).
Without God the question is: do the things I enjoy in this life (these hedonistic occupations) weigh up against the suffering that inevitably sets in and ends in (painful) death?
I think for a lot of people the balance would be negative.

Religion of course is the greatest game of all.
I dare say the main reason for the ban on suicide in the church (and society in general) is the fact that it mocks the game that we play and confronts us with the truth we all wish to avoid: that we will die, and that we will suffer.
People who commit suicide no longer wish to play. They leave the field and as such remind us that we are really only playing a game and nothing more. The only thing that keeps us going is the belief that the game we play holds any validity, or, more realistically, that suffering and death will come tomorrow and not today.

I can understand that people are disappointed when they find out there is no God (and thus, that suffering and death cannot be surpassed in any way), but does it really make you feel better to rob other people of the illusion?

God and everything metaphysical goes beyond what science can prove to be existent or non-existent. Thus the natural state is that of agnosticism. We are either religious or atheist because we were brought up as such, or because we chose to be.
I dare say most of our parents were religious and that we grew up with some sort of belief in God. Thus, we made the choice to become atheists ourselves. Since we can't back this up with any scientific evidence, there has to be other reasons why we resent the notion of God.

So, now that we have established that God is really nothing more than a made-up creature and that thus our parents (and teachers) were wrong, and.. that indeed suffering and death is prone to this existence, what now?
Do we engulve ourselves in hedonistic pleasure and pretend like there's no tomorrow?
Would that not be the same thing as the God-people are essentially doing?
Or do we go emo-cut ourselves in the knowledge that nothing really matters anyway? That we're all on a train to nowhere?

I dunno, I say we cherish the games that make our lives enjoyable, even if we deep down know they hold no meaning and are just that, games.

So let's be nice and not crack down on other people's distractions.  

[TheKomodo]

Nice post but, what does God have to do with enjoying yourself? I do things I enjoy not because I do or don't believe in God, it makes me feel good and makes life less boring either way, for me anyway.

[Cueshark]

So let's be nice and not crack down on other people's distractions.  

One of life's greatest distractions has for years been debating about life, the universe and everything.  Who's distraction is more important?

[DarkOne]

I disagree with you right from the start, HHC. If you follow the christian philosophy, you'll find that the thing that matters is what happens after death. There are a lot of christians that believe the rapture will come in their lifetime. Not sure how you can see meaning in life and the things you do if you think the world is going to end soon anyway. Why do something about global? The world's going to end anyway. And if your afterlife is going to be eternal and filled with happiness, it just takes away the meaning of life. It's going to be such a short portion of your existence, why bother at all with it?

Life has meaning because it's finite. I think we can all mention things we take for granted in every day life, but that would've been incredible for other people. Clean drinking water is such a luxury, but we don't notice it because we get it any time we want at any place. In most parts of africa, they know how valuable clean drinking water is. There's your meaning of life for people that lived before us. They won't experience this anymore, but their efforts have led to an increased standard of life for us.
I sure hope my future family will have an even better standard of life after me, even though I personally can't complain about my standard of life.

Life isn't meaningless to atheists. Life is all that matters to atheists. And to say that "god is all-loving" when you see earthquakes and tsunamis and volcanos, flooding from rivers, forest fires, cancer in young people, hereditary diseases, famine, infectious diseases and religious violence (everybody's favourite at the moment) kill off so many people, including the very young, that's such an incredible insult to people to whom life is all that matters. I just don't understand how anyone can trivialise such disasters.

You are right about one thing though, Bart. We shouldn't rob them of their illusion (whether or not it's true, though I clearly don't think it is , but then, they shouldn't rob us of our possibilities. I'm happy to live in a secular country myself, but to further our knowledge in medicine, physics, chemistry etcetera, a higher volume of research makes it go faster. And as much as we grumpy europeans would like to deny it, we need the US as much as they need us (or perhaps more). However, the religious right is putting shackles on research on stem cells and on decisions that should be between doctors and patients. I'm very happy to live in a country that gives people the choice of euthanasia for example, but the people that are stopping this from happening in other countries are the religious people. Gay rights are suppressed by religious people. Female rights are suppressed by religious people. Children's rights are suppressed by religious people.
And yes, most religious people are moderate and nice and reasonable and wear tidy jumpers and eat cheese like real people. But they have to accept that they are the powerbase for the nutters. (copyright Marcus Brigstocke on the last 2 sentences
Religion is fine if you keep it to yourself. Currently, this is not the case.

[Thouson]

If all ppl read and make researchs in the Bible, see Greek dictionary and original scriptures could see how real is the message.



Matthew 24:3-14 says >>> 3  While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

4 And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

9 “Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."

I dont like to discuss about this,is just for think about...

[TheKomodo]

Yeah, but they were on drugs Thouson...

[HHC]

I disagree with you right from the start, HHC. If you follow the christian philosophy, you'll find that the thing that matters is what happens after death. There are a lot of christians that believe the rapture will come in their lifetime. Not sure how you can see meaning in life and the things you do if you think the world is going to end soon anyway. Why do something about global? The world's going to end anyway. And if your afterlife is going to be eternal and filled with happiness, it just takes away the meaning of life. It's going to be such a short portion of your existence, why bother at all with it?

Because you have to prove to God that you are worthy of rapture. Being a christian itself is not good enough to deserve a ticket to heaven/eternal life, you need to be a good person. And life here on earth is where you get the chance to prove your worth: by taking care of yourself and of others.
As such, there's definitely a point to living: it's the preparation for the afterlife.

Life has meaning because it's finite. I think we can all mention things we take for granted in every day life, but that would've been incredible for other people. Clean drinking water is such a luxury, but we don't notice it because we get it any time we want at any place. In most parts of africa, they know how valuable clean drinking water is. There's your meaning of life for people that lived before us. They won't experience this anymore, but their efforts have led to an increased standard of life for us.
I sure hope my future family will have an even better standard of life after me, even though I personally can't complain about my standard of life.

But what is the meaning of this other than basic survival?
If you survive merely for survival's sake there still isn't any point, because you'll die anyway. You might as well not be born, in the end the result is the same. You're merely delaying the inevitable.

And to say that "god is all-loving" when you see earthquakes and tsunamis and volcanos, flooding from rivers, forest fires, cancer in young people, hereditary diseases, famine, infectious diseases and religious violence (everybody's favourite at the moment) kill off so many people, including the very young, that's such an incredible insult to people to whom life is all that matters. I just don't understand how anyone can trivialise such disasters.

You don't know why these things happen. Maybe they serve God's plan, maybe the just happen outside of God's control. These catastrophies may cause tremendous suffering, but at the same time, isn't it the suffering that brings us closer together? Aren't the challenges we face, grave they may be, the things that make us grow as human beings?
I'm fairly sure that looking back at past troubles most of us will feel grief, but at the same time, they have made us what we are today. There's bad influences in them, but also value.
People who haven't had any trouble in life rarely grow out to be respectable people. They are like children. Only those who have suffered themselves know what other people go through and how important their support can be. Without individual pain there's really no empathy.

Naturally there's little comfort in this for those who actually died (and are denied any opportunity to grow further in life. But for christians, with the afterlife in mind, death does not have to be such an awful thing.

[Thouson]

Yeah, but they were on drugs Thouson...

they = who?