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Trust me, I don't take TUS league stats into consideration for anything. Until fairly recently I have historically avoided this site like the plague because I hate the notion that only TUS enshrines the 'best' players. One doesn't have to look very hard to find great players who have little - if any - TUS presence. As far as that Mole tournament from 2012, great internet sleuthing on that one. As I said before, my personal skill or lack thereof when it comes to Mole is completely irrelevant. That tournament that I joined 6 years ago out of sheer boredom because people probably spammed AG indicating that it was going to be beginning soon was me just killing some time and deciding to play something that I normally don't give a crap about. In other words, citing an example of a single game played many years ago doesn't do anything in this situation and is irrelevant relating to the claim that Mole is the most strategic/tactical scheme there is. I made some hyperbolic, tongue-in-cheek jokes comparing Mole to regular shopper, but I've also said that Mole isn't completely devoid of strategy/tactics.

I highly doubt that there's been that many Mole 'breakthroughs' since 2012. The game (W:A) hasn't been updated in such a way that it would dramatically change how the scheme is played, and it's not as though players of today are simply better than players of the past, generally speaking. SOME mole players themselves might be more competent at that scheme but that is more to do with increased exposure to that particular scheme. What I am saying here is that I doubt a Mole player of today with 2 years of experience would be able to easily defeat a Mole player of yesteryear with 2 years of experience.

I also fail to understand how or why Mole supposedly requires a greater degree of tactical OR technical skill than any other scheme. Knowing when to hide, knowing how to chute, knowing how to best utilize a weapon and when, knowing how to darkside, etc.... these are all competencies shared by many other schemes. Mole isn't unique in this regard by any means. I will admit that my experience with the TUS Mole scheme is extremely limited, but TBH I don't even need to play a scheme to understand how it works. I've been playing Worms for so long that all I need to do is see the options/settings 'on paper' and I can, in my head, understand how the game will play. I also do not understand how you can dismiss the overall luck factor in the scheme. Where the crates drop and what they contain is random, and although it generally holds true that they will likely spawn in the biggest cave, that's not always the case. You can of course attempt to manipulate the map in such a way that you maximize crate drops that are accessable to you, but at the end of the day it is still wildly random.

My estimation of Mole is that it almost invariably comes down to spawns, crate luck, and going all-out at sudden death for kills and/or depriving the other player of high ground and forcing them to drown. Everything else that occurs before that point is basically just crate hoarding and positioning, which, as I said, isn't exactly the epitome of tactical nor technical Worms gameplay. I'm not saying that the scheme doesn't have any strategy involved because it certainly does... all I'm getting at is that it's not the most skilled scheme to play in any sense aside from knowing how to best utilize the mole itself. I'll admit that I do not know how/why sometimes the mole digs backwards but I am sure that there's a simple explanation. Care to elucidate? Also, how does a mole do 200 damage? I've never seen that.

The main skill involved in Mole is quite simply just using the mole... making sure that it digs in exactly the way you want it to every time. That doesn't seem like a very difficult task to master compared to many of the other technical skills/competencies present within W:A as a whole. I am certain that if I actually gave a crap about Mole I could master the scheme in a relatively short period of time compared to what it would take to master something like roping, bng, elite, etc. As a matter of fact, this thread has inspired me to start playing more Mole games (with the updated TUS scheme) because I want to see first-hand if there is more to the scheme than I believe or if I am right after all. As I said before, that one and only game recorded here on TUS was a random example of me not really giving a crap and just playing something that I normally seldomly play simply because I was present when the tourney started. It wasn't taken seriously because I knew how luck-based the scheme was. It was never my intention to insult anybody here by my comments... I was only attempting to argue that Mole isn't nearly as hardcore as some of you clearly think it is. I contend that the random luck plays a much larger factor that ya'll will admit, that it doesn't take as much competency as certain other schemes, and that in general it's kind of noob bait. In AG I am constantly seeing noobs hosting and playing it, which says something.

edit 1: I watched that replay file and even though my opponent got TWO select worms via crates, I still only lost because I killed myself with a cow that I thought would pass through a girder. To me it looked like it would work, but instead of going over the girder it dropped right below me and killed me. I was in control of the match pretty much the whole time even though the guy started with 3 of his worms at the top and I only had one.

edit 2: I played a couple of Mole games today and although it was the HB scheme and not the TUS scheme, it was exactly as I remembered overall in terms of how it's played. I won both games too.

Quote from: skunk3 on July 08, 2018, 06:19 PM

Quote from: TheKomodo on July 08, 2018, 06:10 PM

By the way every single scheme has luck factor whether you realize it or not.

Luck, as in your genetics as a human, your ability to understand and improvise, plan and carry out.

And where you were born and how you were raised contributes to that, and that's completely random luck...

Do you have a family that can buy you a good keyboard for roping, were you raised in a place with opportunities to get a good job and buy good equipment?

There is so much more underneath the iceberg than you will ever realize


@Zalo, I find your commitment to Mole Shopper more impressive than your skills, because I personally agree with skunk, it's nowhere near as highly skilled as you think it is. And i'll always expect you to defend that, it's admirable haha!

That is going off of the deep end.


There are certain schemes that have no luck involved, like TTRR, Big RR, etc. Of course we could argue about people not having the exact same keyboards and whatnot but that's really reaching and pretty stupid. I could also argue that I can't play TTRR at 7 a.m. because of the light coming in through my window and reflecting on my screen.

Big RR/TTRR still has random wind.

Quote from: ZaLo

Anyone wants to earn 40$? way is open, just win in any of 5 games against me, and 40$ is yours.

Wind is only a factor if you fall. Falling isn't luck.

The TUS scheme has superweapons disabled, limited girder range (vs unlimited), slow water rise, regular banana (vs. gold powered), and random placement. Not sure if it's played with manual placement in leagues since I've never played mole for tus. You still have the hilariously overpowered clusters, airstrike, baseball bat, firepunch, dragonball, shotgun, etc. There's lots of opportunity to darkside or block until you have good weapons, so the luck element isn't that huge.

Just like any scheme on WA not all the top players play it on TUS. Not that I count myself among the top mole players (far from it). FMA is probably better than Zalo and he's played like 6 tus games. You probably wouldn't recognize that name because he is a serial-aliaser. Every game he changes his name and country flag.

After playing however many thousand Worms games I don't care about winning anymore. I often root for the other guy to win because he probably cares more. Games with zero luck factor are what I find boring. Those games often just reward whoever plays the safest and most boringly -- dAiNa dominated the league at one time but her roping was like watching paint dry. To each their own I guess. But I do find Team 17 pretty boring as well.

Not very coherent point but I feel that if you wish to continue ripping on mole shopper you should put your skills to the test first.

I only briefly looked at the page for Mole so I clearly missed a lot of differences. TBH I was only thinking of starting inventory and basic settings, not about stuff like gold banana (I pretend it doesn't exist) and whatnot. I couldda swore that it said something about placing worms in holes to start. As far as the other differences, they don't really change my estimation of the scheme, and IMO those changes reflect how the regular scheme should be played anyway. It also still isn't the most strategic/tactical scheme there is by a long shot, which is ultimately the only point I care about here. There's very few schemes in W:A that have a zero luck factor, but generally speaking I enjoy playing schemes with less luck involved as opposed to more luck involved because they are more of a test of who is playing the best at the moment and/or who is generally better. If I just want a 6 player funner match I don't really care what we play, but if I am playing someone 1-on-1 I definitely care about what we play because I don't want to invest time and mental energy into trying to win a game only to be screwed over by random, unpredictable luck. I do care about winning, and I play to win, and losing due to random crate luck is lame AF but a part of the game sometimes. If I didn't care about winning I probably wouldn't play Worms at all because this game is all skill + strategy. I'd play something else. Winning feels better than losing, and while winning isn't a requirement for having fun, it definitely makes the experience more fun, at least in my personal opinion. My personal skills when it comes to Mole are irrelevant to the point at hand. I don't need to be a director to critique a film, nor do I need to be a chef to critique a dish. This isn't about me. 

Skunk why don't you at least check the tus scheme before making accusations.

I am on your side but the fact you don't even wanna check the scheme first is ignorant.

What accusations? I just looked at the scheme and unless I overlooked something, it is as I said - played the same as every other Mole except there's manual starting placement as opposed to random.

.

kids, family life, when i find time outside of work and for myself its usually spent watching tv series if i'm not spending free time with my partner.

I'd like an hour or so a day/every other day if i knew i could come to ag and find tus games..

No TUS games but you can still play!

Quote from: skunk3 on July 04, 2018, 11:00 PM

Quote from: Zalo on July 04, 2018, 08:45 PM

Quote from: MrTPenguin on July 04, 2018, 05:05 PM

Quote from: TheKomodo on July 04, 2018, 03:00 PM

Maybe we should sign a petition to ban Mole Shoppers?

Mole shoppa, like torn/ripped jeans on young women, is a mere fad and will disappear in a few years.

You mean yourselves.

Mole is the most strategy & tactical based game, just like chess. Everybody who doesn't enjoy it is simply a sub-human. Unless you play on a resolution higher than 1366x768. If so, then I feel sorry for you, cuz you probably suck at jumping from pixel to pixel. Streamed 1920x1080 looks like sh*t.

Bahahaha….

Mole Shopper is a joke, my friend. It is basically a noob version of regular shopper in which you don't even need rope skills, or one could look at it as a sort of dumbed-town Team17. Much of the game is total luck and randomness and requires very little strategy compared to, say, Elite or Intermediate at high levels. The reason why so many noobs play Mole is because it's so easy and basically anyone has a chance of winning regardless of personal skill.

Luck based scheme? Dude, I would easily crush you in this scheme 300x times in a row. Everything is a skill over there
- hiding
- mole as a bumerang
- knowing when to steal, when to invade
- sprint across the map + parachute jumps to extreme extent
- the best possible executions, even with the worst weapons that you've got

Dude, I mean it. I will pay you 40$ if you ever defeat me in 20 games. Do you accept the challenge? It's so annoying to have ignorants like you, calling everything they don't know "Luck-Based". It's just sh*t mentality.

Mole shopper is no more difficult to play at a decent level than any other scheme. It is incredibly basic, in fact. I would never play 20 games of mole shopper vs. anyone because it's boring and too lucky for my tastes. I've played plenty of mole shoppers, so it's not like I don't know the scheme and how it is played. I'm not ignorant and lacking the super duper moleshop secrets to winning. Hiding, stealing, invading, chuting, etc... all of this stuff is present in many other schemes. To say that mole shopper is the most tactical/strategic scheme is ludicrous and lots of people agree. Not trying to get you pissed off or whatever because clearly you love it but that's how I view it. To me, mole is just a funner scheme to play when nobody else feels like playing something more serious in AG. There's a reason why it is so popular amongst noobs... because it is very easy to play and almost anyone has a chance of winning, especially in 4-6 player games. Random luck plays a huge part in the game whether you can recognize that or not.

@kinslayer - what are you saying? be a man, go on...

Quote from: MrTPenguin on July 04, 2018, 05:05 PM

Quote from: TheKomodo on July 04, 2018, 03:00 PM

Maybe we should sign a petition to ban Mole Shoppers?

Mole shoppa, like torn/ripped jeans on young women, is a mere fad and will disappear in a few years.

You mean yourselves.

Mole is the most strategy & tactical based game, just like chess. Everybody who doesn't enjoy it is simply a sub-human. Unless you play on a resolution higher than 1366x768. If so, then I feel sorry for you, cuz you probably suck at jumping from pixel to pixel. Streamed 1920x1080 looks like sh*t.

Bahahaha….

Mole Shopper is a joke, my friend. It is basically a noob version of regular shopper in which you don't even need rope skills, or one could look at it as a sort of dumbed-town Team17. Much of the game is total luck and randomness and requires very little strategy compared to, say, Elite or Intermediate at high levels. The reason why so many noobs play Mole is because it's so easy and basically anyone has a chance of winning regardless of personal skill.