The Big Religion/God Debate

[Almog]

well, it's hard for me to explain this, but I'll try
God created everything you know, including the Time dimension.. hence God isn't subordinated to (hope it's the right word) time. that means in god's terms, being allmighty and creating the time, there isn't a future, present, or past, therefore - there was nothing before him

I know it's hard to understand or believe even, but the blible is not only a story, there are 4 ways to read it, when the first one is yeah reading and understanding the story, but every level deeper you reveal the bible is a code and everything is written there..

[SPW]

It's all about believing. It makes no sense to start a topic like this coz ppl wont get in same way, tho. And first human has to get in really deep problems before they maybe start to believe that there is something even bigger.

I believe in Jesus Christ and I read the bible and believe every word in it coz it is from god and it is the truth. But everybody can believe what he/she want, just keep up respect from eachother.

[Husk]

sasquatch > god

[TheKomodo]

what brings me to whole this, is simply things I've experienced in my life, or my friends have...
the only thing that can divert my beliefs is if somone will be able to answer the question - How did it all start? and I'm not talking about the theories of the big bang, I'm talking about the first-ever tiniest energy made... until then - I stick to believe god did all this

Most people experience the exact same things, share the exact same feelings, the only difference is the way they perceive this and this depends on where they were born, their upbringing how their parents treated them and events in their childhood.

I personally mean no offence, but also, I can't believe there are people that actually believe in something that has NEVER even had any slight chance of their being ANY proof.

I really don't intend to upset or anger anyone here but this IS what this thread is about, sharing your opinion, but to me, people that believe in god are weak minded and deep down inside just scared of death and other things we can't explain. It's like they are sheep, following a life that has already been determined and they really have no choice over their events in their life, I can't sit back and accept this, if I believed in this, i'd rather die than have no choice in my own fate.

Even using the word "God" to me is just stupid, God is just a word that Humans made up and even IF their was a "God" I doubt this being would call itself "God" as this would imply a "godlike complex" which seems a bit selfish, so why would a being that created everything have a higher personality than the very things it created itself?

well, it's hard for me to explain this, but I'll try
God created everything you know, including the Time dimension.. hence God isn't subordinated to (hope it's the right word) time. that means in god's terms, being allmighty and creating the time, there isn't a future, present, or past, therefore - there was nothing before him

I know it's hard to understand or believe even, but the blible is not only a story, there are 4 ways to read it, when the first one is yeah reading and understanding the story, but every level deeper you reveal the bible is a code and everything is written there..

I am with nino here, everything must be created, your explanation is jibberish and extremely flawed.

For example, you call "God" a "him" which implies he must have a Mother, so technically someone DID create him.

If there WAS nothing before "God" then what would be the point of his existence?

If there was nothing in the present then nothing would have happened therefor he didn't create mankind...

The above applies to the future.

To me the Bible is just like a bedtime story, makes people feel safe and loved and wanted, because all bedtimes storys end nice, although I know everything in the Bible is not "nice" the jist of it implies it's the moral thing to believe in.

I do respect your choice to believe what you believe Almog, and I really don't mean any offence, because you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe and we still get along just fine, so theres no harm done.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and thats that.

[nino]

here in brazil we are still have some tribes of indians (not from india lol) but native peoples who lived here even before portugal come and f@#! it up xD, but well the fact is that theres a tribe that belives that the blood that fall from girls when they are 12-13 years  or something happens cos when they born, since theres no hospital...they shower the baby in a river and at this moment a small fish go inside this baby by the vagina and while the baby grow up..the fish also gorw up inside her..and then when shes like 12-13 yera..that fish bites inside her..then the blood falls between her legs...stupid history no? well ye for us, cos we know how it works..but try to convice them that they are wrong...thats a hard work...


so ye..each peoples, country, civilization has their beliefs, and used to happen a lot when they couldnot explain such things which nowdays is so usual. like rain..other tribe thinks that rain happens when their god is furious...

and btw..brazil is very catholic cos of portugal also was and is...then they just passed that culture for brazil too, if maybe brazil were colonized for irak per exemple, i`d be morramed not nino, and then things would be diferent and peoples who today says that jesus is the savation, would say it is maome or ala.

but every baby burns atheist until someone start to say stuff to him/her.. then that kid grow up believing in something that he/she isnot so mature to think about yet.

[TheKomodo]

but every baby burns atheist until someone start to say stuff to him/her.. then that kid grow up believing in something that he/she isnot so mature to think about yet.

This is exactly my problem, people are more or less programmed into believe such a thing, because they have no choice, they should be told nothing until at least adulthood and then be told the storys of God and the bible etc, I bet a ridiculously high percentage of people would not believe if it was like this...

[Almog]

komo, you're just WRONG in almost everything you say
first, I weren't taught religion by my parents , I chose to be a believer only a few years ago, and it was after I already had some biology background the the evolution theory stuff of darvin which is btw proven to be false.

I personally mean no offence, but also, I can't believe there are people that actually believe in something that has NEVER even had any slight chance of their being ANY proof.

dude, hypnosis brings people back to their previous lives.. for example a guy I know during hypnosis was speaking fluent german as if it was his main language, and this guy didn't even know a word when he was awake.. and the number of strories like that only raises everyday... so if that's not enough proof for you that there is reincarnation I don't know what is, can science explain it?

I really don't intend to upset or anger anyone here but this IS what this thread is about, sharing your opinion, but to me, people that believe in god are weak minded and deep down inside just scared of death and other things we can't explain. It's like they are sheep, following a life that has already been determined and they really have no choice over their events in their life, I can't sit back and accept this, if I believed in this, i'd rather die than have no choice in my own fate.

who said anything about not having a choice? any each of us has a free will and choice and makes his own fate
once again, you are wrong and it all comes from not learning deeply the bible

Even using the word "God" to me is just stupid, God is just a word that Humans made up and even IF their was a "God" I doubt this being would call itself "God" as this would imply a "godlike complex" which seems a bit selfish, so why would a being that created everything have a higher personality than the very things it created itself?

another time being wrong, or just not-accepting
god gave the name for himself, in fact, god has over 70 names in the bible, but yeah, it's in Hebrew and the English word "God" wasn't there.. and each of his names have a meaning of his exsistance and clues for his characterictis

I am with nino here, everything must be created, your explanation is jibberish and extremely flawed.

that's just impossible, cuz if everything must be created there's never a first creator, so it's a paradox that science will never figure
but I tell you there is an answer for this, which I can't explain here, and it basically about god being exist forever, outside time scale

For example, you call "God" a "him" which implies he must have a Mother, so technically someone DID create him.

once again, English word "him", obviously god has no body, so he can't have a mother, so he wasn't born
please don't go into stupid things like that. language can't always express spiritual stuff

If there WAS nothing before "God" then what would be the point of his existence?

again wrong, or you just repling to my post without even reading it carefully
I said god has always been there, cuz he created the time, so there was nothing before him. therefore there's no need in point of existing him, but dicuss the point of why he made us exist

If there was nothing in the present then nothing would have happened therefor he didn't create mankind...

what are you talking about

To me the Bible is just like a bedtime story, makes people feel safe and loved and wanted, because all bedtimes storys end nice, although I know everything in the Bible is not "nice" the jist of it implies it's the moral thing to believe in.

have you ever tried to look differently in the bible other than bedtime story?
have you even considered that maybe, just maybe, it's true ? and there is more into it than just stories?

I do respect your choice to believe what you believe Almog, and I really don't mean any offence, because you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe and we still get along just fine, so theres no harm done.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and thats that.

thanks

[Cueshark]

Almog, you seem to have great respect for the Bible.  

Can I just check that this is the same Bible which contains these passages?

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

  "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense.  (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

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Oh and don't forget that the 6th Commandment is "You shall not murder".

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I think it's plainly obvious that the Bible was written by human beings with absolutely no help from a divine being.  

When early man wrote the Bible they thought our world was the centre of the universe and they probably thought the creator would treat them like they were the most important species in the universe.  The Bible is very self indulgent.

Now we know that we are a pale blue dot in a massive massive unthinkably large universe and there is not a creator who cares about us.  Our family care about us and our friends.  

[Cueshark]

Sorry for the double post.  

I'll post later in proper response to Almog.

But here is link to a study which was fairly recent and pretty much proves evolution to be true.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html

For someone to be an evolution denier they must be driven by ideology, not logic and rational thinking.

I don't expect anyone to change Almog's view.

I would like to ask him though, why do you think evolution has been proven false?  I thought the complete opposite and the general consensus is that evolution is true.

Are you a creationist Almog?  Do you think that humans were created by God in their present form and that the Earth is only 6000-8000 years old?

[TheKomodo]

komo, you're just WRONG in almost everything you say
first, I weren't taught religion by my parents , I chose to be a believer only a few years ago, and it was after I already had some biology background the the evolution theory stuff of darvin which is btw proven to be false.

You can't say I am wrong because you don't have proof, the darwin theory has neither been proven right OR wrong.

dude, hypnosis brings people back to their previous lives.. for example a guy I know during hypnosis was speaking fluent german as if it was his main language, and this guy didn't even know a word when he was awake.. and the number of strories like that only raises everyday... so if that's not enough proof for you that there is reincarnation I don't know what is, can science explain it?

How can this prove this is reincarnation? And what does it have to do with "God"?

Just because some guy undergoes hypnosis and speaks fluent German does not mean God exists and it's Gods doing, it also doesn't prove reincarnation is real. Again these things are just things mankind has made ourselves, not God.

who said anything about not having a choice? any each of us has a free will and choice and makes his own fate
once again, you are wrong and it all comes from not learning deeply the bible

Again, you can't say I am wrong as you have no proof, If you read the bible and believe all you can, how can you possibly believe in reincarnation AND heaven and hell? This itself flaws itself.

another time being wrong, or just not-accepting
god gave the name for himself, in fact, god has over 70 names in the bible, but yeah, it's in Hebrew and the English word "God" wasn't there.. and each of his names have a meaning of his exsistance and clues for his characterictis

Like Cue just said, the bible was written by Humans, with no help whatsoever by a "divine being"

that's just impossible, cuz if everything must be created there's never a first creator, so it's a paradox that science will never figure
but I tell you there is an answer for this, which I can't explain here, and it basically about god being exist forever, outside time scale

Theres no paradox, what you are saying just can't exist, how can "God" create us, but nothing creates him? This just doesn't make sense and you know it, deep down you KNOW this just can't be true.

Think about it seriously, you say you can't explain it, because you just can't, because there is no explanation, if "God" existed outside our "Time scale" then he would have no effect on us whatsoever and couldn't have created us.

once again, English word "him", obviously god has no body, so he can't have a mother, so he wasn't born
please don't go into stupid things like that. language can't always express spiritual stuff

You are the one that said stupid things like god is a "him" if god has no body, and no sex, and no physical presence then obviously "he/she/it" is NOT a "him"

again wrong, or you just repling to my post without even reading it carefully
I said god has always been there, cuz he created the time, so there was nothing before him. therefore there's no need in point of existing him, but dicuss the point of why he made us exist

How can you say "God" has always been there? If he has always been there and always will be there then why the hell doesn't "God" contact us, or help to make us all at peace with each other.

"God" Didn't create time, Humans did, animals don't know what Time is, they are still a part of our universe, Time is only something we made up to describe and remember the length of things in their existence.

If you are saying "God" always was and always is, then you are indefinately saying he DOES exist in time, whether "God" likes it or not.

have you ever tried to look differently in the bible other than bedtime story?
have you even considered that maybe, just maybe, it's true ? and there is more into it than just stories?

I used to go to Church and Sunday School when I was younger, it never felt right, I always challenged the "teachers" with questions they could not answer, it made them look foolish without me even realising it, when they couldn't answer my questions in a way that actually made sense and proved something to me, I stopped believing and realised the truth, there is no such thing as "God".

thanks

You are welcome

[Cueshark]

dude, hypnosis brings people back to their previous lives.. for example a guy I know during hypnosis was speaking fluent german as if it was his main language, and this guy didn't even know a word when he was awake.. and the number of strories like that only raises everyday... so if that's not enough proof for you that there is reincarnation I don't know what is, can science explain it?

Also, even if your story about that 'guy' that you know is true it doesn't mean anything supernatural.  I've probably heard a million words of German spoken in my life.  I believe that they are probably somewhere in my brain knocking about on an unconscious level.  It's plausible that in an altered state of consciousness someone could speak words they heard years ago and forgotten.

You've decided that your story proves reincarnation and past lives.  All it does is raise some interesting questions about the human brain....if true.

Who is this guy?  What is his name?  Was this case documented by anyone or any independent group?

I've heard stories like this before (there was one recently) and they usually turn out to be very much less exciting and groundbreaking than they appear on the surface.

[TheKomodo]

Trust me, if anything could 100% prove "God" existed, I would believe, but nothing ever will.

[Almog]

@ your first post
it's hard for me to read it in English, but at glance it's not quite the SAME as it is in Hebrew
besides, like I said.. bible is not only about bedtime story and the simplicity of it, it's very complicated, and again, it's a code
obviously in that langauge you can't see what I can see in Hebrew "the holy letters" and stuff, and sorry but I can't express myself like I wanted

@2nd post
lets distinguish evolution from theory of evolution
evolution is a scientific fact, mutations happen in cells causing them to change to something little bit different everytime they multiply causing creatures to change in time, also why your kids don't look exactly like you
so perhaps men were taller or small back in the days, and had more hair, or bigger brain, but then comes the 2nd part,
theory of evolution
which talks about human coming from monkeys and all creatures developing from 1 living cell

I'm creationist, I do think the humans were created by Go in our present form, maybe little different and that's what evolution changed, but definately not coming from monkeys

now why I know this theory has been proven false? for one thing, if every creature evolving from its previous forms is better surviver, like the creatures between monkeys and humans (lets call them half humans), we should see these forms today living like us, it makes no sense that monkeys survived but half humans didnt
2nd thing, if all living creatues began from 1 cell,  we should find fossils of 1 creature that are oldest, but what were found are fossiles in same age of many different creatures

3rd and maybe most important, only the odds and co-incidence of the current life forms developing from a few cells are so f@#!ing impossible that's it's simply too imaginary to be true, more imaginary than having a god

[Almog]

well, I see that while I was typing 3 other replies have been made... anyways komo forget it heh, I give up explaining cuz I just can't do it in English, sorry
I rather spend my time tus'ing

[TheKomodo]

Again, Hebrew is a language made up by Humans, don't you ever stop to think it was wrote this way to MAKE you think it's all a code? And if it was a code you could still explain it in English, unless your English isn't fully developed, but someone who understands all Hebrew and all English COULD explain it.

About your last paragraph, How can it be imaginary and impossible we evolved from a few cells, when each and every one of started off as 1 sperm cell mixed with an egg?

Cells split and multiply, hence why we evolved, the cells changed and spread and ended up in certain ways forming arms and legs and whatever for whatever creature.