The Big Religion/God Debate

[HHC]

Who says I found an answer, my point was I don't believe in any it, my point from the start was all I believe in is my 5 senses, and things 100% proven, at least to my senses.

And those senses cannot be deceived?
And what is 100% proven? Nothing is.
There are lots of things in the universe as of yet unexplained or the subject of mere speculation. They are not 100% facts (nor ever will be) and they are not perceivable with any of the senses. That doesn't mean that they don't exist though. I mean, what goes on in a black hole? That's something we will never know. Should we just stop the investigation there and say that black holes don't exist as they aren't perceivable with the eye?
You can bash religious people (or big bang followers) all you like but when you're too lazy to even speculate what may beyond our horizons and dismiss any such theories as bogus from the start there really isn't much point in discussing the big questions of life..

[TheKomodo]

As I said, people used to believe that the Earth was a flat plate, but then Human intelligence proved that it's a round ball and they knew. No need for beliefs. At that time Catholic Church "main Bible servants" have ordered to kill/burn those godless blasphemers that dare to claim that. Looks like "God" forgot to mention in that code that Earth is ball-shaped when he was talking about creations of things.. And btw, I've seen many books with "codes".. Allegorical stories are grateful for 100 different interpretations that U can call "codes", but that do not prove that they were written with a help of a "higher force" or "God"...

Thats another thing that bugs me, if "God" was responsible for the Bible being made, why would he miss out VERY IMPORTANT information like, yes, the Earth is a round, we are not in the centre of the Universe, black holes, stars, other planets, supernovas, now, is it just me or doesn't this hold "God" indirectly responsible for the Death's of too many people to count?

Because of this information, supposedly descended from God, Humans have lived by it for thousands of years, and like Ramone said, any non-believers, for example people who questioned the shape of the Earth were killed.

There are just too many things that in my opinion make it all unbelievable than believable, and i've tried to believe, to me, my parents are my gods in a way, they are the ones who created me, always looked after me, bathed me and fed me, taught me the truth about as much as possilble, kept me safe and loyal.

Now, obviously something must have happened for us all to be here, I don't know what but I ain't gonna go around saying it's "God", something, whether it was a living force or an unexplainable event, or a chemical reaction, or something else we just possibly can't imagine, something must have done something for it all to have started, I have no idea what, no one has any idea what, ANYONE who says they know 100% how we came to be is a liar, they can BELIEVE what they want and HOPE what they want, thats fair and I respect that, but anyone who says they "KNOW" is just damnright ignorant and silly.

I think about what are we, where did we come from, whats it gonna be like in a million years, most people think about stuff like this, it's perfectly fine and natural to think about stuff and believe and hope, but people who preach and specificly think they are 100% correct and nothing else could possibly be the truth, I seriously can't stand those people, if people can't share their beliefs and take criticism and theorys on how their beliefs are flawed and be able to handle it without getting angry or upset, then I think they don't truly 100% believe what they say they believe, they are still scared or clueless or have some questions unanswered in some way and their beliefs are based on more of a hope than a belief.

This is why I think even calling yourself an Athiest is still the same as any other religion, just because they don't believe in "God" it's almost funny that they all still want the SAME questions answered.

[TheKomodo]

Who says I found an answer, my point was I don't believe in any it, my point from the start was all I believe in is my 5 senses, and things 100% proven, at least to my senses.

And those senses cannot be deceived?
And what is 100% proven? Nothing is.
There are lots of things in the universe as of yet unexplained or the subject of mere speculation. They are not 100% facts (nor ever will be) and they are not perceivable with any of the senses. That doesn't mean that they don't exist though. I mean, what goes on in a black hole? That's something we will never know. Should we just stop the investigation there and say that black holes don't exist as they aren't perceivable with the eye?
You can bash religious people (or big bang followers) all you like but when you're too lazy to even speculate what may beyond our horizons and dismiss any such theories as bogus from the start there really isn't much point in discussing the big questions of life..

Of course senses can be deceived, but most times when this happens, you know about it, and so many things are 100% proven its unbelievable you can even think this let alone say it, for example, if I walked up to you and slapped your face, it's 100% proven that I just walked up to you and slapped your face, so don't say things that aren't true.

I am not bashing anyone, you are being extremely ignorant HHC, i've stated I don't agree with them, and I think it's stupid in my opinion, but I highly respect their choice to believe what they believe, if you can't understand this then YOU should be the one I see with no point in discussing this matter.

Sorry for double post, but when you spent like 15 or more minutes on a post in a popular thread and when you post someone else has posted directly at you, it's easier to just hit quote and do another post.

[HHC]

Of course senses can be deceived, but most times when this happens, you know about it

You know about it only because you have been taught that it is so. You go by convention rather than direct experience.

and so many things are 100% proven its unbelievable you can even think this let alone say it, for example, if I walked up to you and slapped your face, it's 100% proven that I just walked up to you and slapped your face, so don't say things that aren't true.

Hmm.. that isn't a real natural law is it? That's an event happening at a set location in time and space. Kinda like Hagar the Viking hitting Charles the Frank on the head with a battleaxe. I'm fairly sure both would agree at the time that it was a 100% fact that it happened (unless both of them were psychotic, or liars), but when Hagar goes back to his camp the next day and tells the story, would everyone believe him? What evidence would Hagar have to back up his claims? What evidence do we have now that Hagar even existed 1200 years ago?

A natural law on the other hand could be recreated through experiment. Suppose Komo and HHC were robots instead (and thus live forever), everytime Komo walked to HHC he would have to hit him in order for the natural law to have any validity. Yet.. what if one day Komo walked up to me and instead slipped over a banana on the way there. The robot would fall, HHC would not get hit and the natural law would not be 100% correct anymore. This is something that can happen to any natural law. If a certain object defies the law of gravity tomorrow then we've got a bit of a problem and the law of gravity would not be 100% applicable anymore.
Furthermore, the experiment may have been done on a false basis. Outside of the experiment there may not be electricity for the robots to move, thus the robots would only behave this way in the labratory and not in reality. Or.. what if the robots only moved because they were instructioned by the doctor's mind to do so? In quantum physics this is a real problem because the observer seems to have a direct influence on the behaviour of the matter he's experimenting with:

I am not bashing anyone, you are being extremely ignorant HHC, i've stated I don't agree with them, and I think it's stupid in my opinion, but I highly respect their choice to believe what they believe, if you can't understand this then YOU should be the one I see with no point in discussing this matter.

I dunno, it just seems that calling people's opinion stupid is not a sign of high respect. But nm, let's stick to the topic.

[TheKomodo]

You know about it only because you have been taught that it is so. You go by convention rather than direct experience.

No, I know about it because like I said, it's my 5 senses, and this is a fact, if you have been deceived, then the thing that has been deceived still happened, so it's still 100%. Like it or not.

Hmm.. that isn't a real natural law is it? That's an event happening at a set location in time and space. Kinda like Hagar the Viking hitting Charles the Frank on the head with a battleaxe. I'm fairly sure both would agree at the time that it was a 100% fact that it happened (unless both of them were psychotic, or liars), but when Hagar goes back to his camp the next day and tells the story, would everyone believe him? What evidence would Hagar have to back up his claims? What evidence do we have now that Hagar even existed 1200 years ago?

Natural law, is something Mankind made up, it has no relevance whatsoever to the fact that there are multiple things that are 100% fact.

It doesn't matter who believes what because they were not there to see it, at the end of the day the 2 people that were involved 100% KNOW the event happened and that's all that matters, you can try and twist this any way you want but you cannot dodge the fact I am right about this, it's like that bullshit people say "if a tree falls in the woods and no ones around to see it, does it actually happen" Of course it does the sentence itself proclaims that it does, If a tree falls it falls doesn't matter if anyone's around to see it, the fact of the matter is that it happened, 100% indefinate fact.

I just hit my desktop with my hand, 100% fact, to me, I know it happened, no one else does no one else has to, I just did it, I know it, that's my 100% Proof.

I just typed the last sentence, I know I did it, and because it is there before this sentence, I am guessing that is 100% proof also, unless I typed this one 1st, and then typed the one beforehand after, but above this one... AAAAHAAAAA ! Who cares? I know how I did it, that's my 100% fact and proof.

A natural law on the other hand could be recreated through experiment. Suppose Komo and HHC were robots instead (and thus live forever), everytime Komo walked to HHC he would have to hit him in order for the natural law to have any validity. Yet.. what if one day Komo walked up to me and instead slipped over a banana on the way there. The robot would fall, HHC would not get hit and the natural law would not be 100% correct anymore. This is something that can happen to any natural law. If a certain object defies the law of gravity tomorrow then we've got a bit of a problem and the law of gravity would not be 100% applicable anymore.
Furthermore, the experiment may have been done on a false basis. Outside of the experiment there may not be electricity for the robots to move, thus the robots would only behave this way in the labratory and not in reality. Or.. what if the robots only moved because they were instructioned by the doctor's mind to do so? In quantum physics this is a real problem because the observer seems to have a direct influence on the behaviour of the matter he's experimenting with:

Sorry, but now you are just being silly, this has got nothing to do with what I said, it doesn't even compare to anything to do with anything that I said.

Everything you just said in this quote, is just YOUR own flaw, your own excuse for disbelief, what is the point in you even making up this ridiculous scenario about Robots when you are talking about Natural Law, remember natural law is something Mankind made up for Human behavior, not robots...

I dunno, it just seems that calling people's opinion stupid is not a sign of high respect. But nm, let's stick to the topic.

I didn't call it stupid as in state it as a fact, in MY opinion it's stupid and I am entitled to that, people can think I am stupid or whatever all they want, I don't care lol.

[Abnaxus]

In quantum physics this is a real problem because the observer seems to have a direct influence on the behaviour of the matter he's experimenting with.

This goes too far for us, but it's so beautiful and frustating. :]

[TheKomodo]

One thing I thought was cool, well annoying also at times, is like, 2 storys here, I was sitting in my house one day listening to music, not very loud, just calm and relaxed, I turned everything off as normal, went to the shop, came back like 15-20 minutes later, turned everything back on, speakers weren't working anymore, i'm like, wtf's up with that, and now, last week, same thing happened, but with my 32"HDTV - I can't even BnG anymore properly cuz I am using this little stupid monitor, but the point is, I think it's weird that everytime something electrical to do with my PC that break, breaks when I am not there lol, it's weird, but sure there is explanation, even if it's one I can't understand yet.

[HHC]

Electrical machines are much like lightbulbs.. once they are running they are fine. Turn 'em back on and they might *snap*. Same with my cpu.. it has a habit of crashing when I start it up in the morning.. but once it's been running for an hour it won't crash anymore..ever. 

[Cueshark]

One thing I thought was cool, well annoying also at times, is like, 2 storys here, I was sitting in my house one day listening to music, not very loud, just calm and relaxed, I turned everything off as normal, went to the shop, came back like 15-20 minutes later, turned everything back on, speakers weren't working anymore, i'm like, wtf's up with that, and now, last week, same thing happened, but with my 32"HDTV - I can't even BnG anymore properly cuz I am using this little stupid monitor, but the point is, I think it's weird that everytime something electrical to do with my PC that break, breaks when I am not there lol, it's weird, but sure there is explanation, even if it's one I can't understand yet.

It sounds most likely to be one of a couple of possibilities.

The first is 'confirmation bias'.  Basically you're noticing them more when they happen when you're not there.  What I mean is, are you able to accurately recall the amount of times something broke when you weren't there against times when you were?  Then you would be sure that things are definately only breaking when you're out.  I would think about documenting these events to avoid internal biases. ( if you care )

The second is good old fashioned coincidence.

[Ramone]

Humans (scientists) have the need to understand the World around them, they discover, observe, examine and prove things around us and make laws about them. That's common sense or intelligence. Of course, everything can be questioned from the philosophers point of view, philosophers can even question if 1+1 is equal 2. And at some point they can even make a theory that 1+1 is not 2. That's the philosophy.

Yes, everything is possible. Idea that Matrix movie made is possible. Idea that nothing really exist and that all around is hologram pictures placed in our brain by higher intelligence is possible. Idea that 1+1 is not equal 2 is possible. But those are just guesses and theories, those are beliefs.
Human brain by it's common senses and intelligence can only be certain in what it's capable to understand and prove. And that's that 1+1 is equal 2, Earth is a ball-shaped object, our nearest neighbor galaxy is 2,5 million light years away from us, there are 4 fundamental forces that propel the whole Universe, and so on and so on...

In last few decades science have pushed the edges of knowledge so much that even they (some great minds) cannot agree and comprehend all of it, so how should we (that don't even think about it much) comprehend those things? First step for us to get to know something is to realize and accept that we don't know. That's good old Socrates saying: "I know that I know nothing"..

Some things we know, to some things we can only wonder..
The thing is simple, as I've already said, Human brain is not able (do not have capacity) to figure it all out. Same as animal brain cannot understand how did the Humans made micro-chips which allows us to play Worms or talk right now from the other side of the planet to another, that's how we cannot understand infinity of the Universe or "God" or whatever.. Our brain just cannot go further than 3rd dimension (at least today).

See this impressing animation of the scale of the Universe that Humans have observed so far:

Makes U wonder, doesn't it? ;x

[Almog]

amazing film =)

[dilligaf]

Your guys' posts have blown my mind, and that video just ripped it right apart. Do we on Earth really know that that is how far away those other galaxies are? And how exactly? I always imagine, what you would come across if you look in one direction and just head that way for ever and just see what is out there. My head is literally spinning after all this.

[TheKomodo]

Yeah that video is awesome I love documentarys about space, it is probably the most interesting thing to me.

Makes you wonder though, funny how some people walk around thinking they are so big and important, then you see this and realise just how small you actually are.

But yeah, the size of the universe even in this video, I can't possibly believe there isn't life somewhere else, and I wonder, for the people who believe in "God" if we actually had proof there was life out there, intelligent life like us, would it change the perspective of religious people? Would it change their beliefs? Would they accept other lifeforms as part of "Mankind" that "God" created, or would it destroy everything they believed in?

[Ramone]

...Do we on Earth really know that that is how far away those other galaxies are? And how exactly? ...

"How exactly?" Heh, tell me U don't expect a scientific explanation? I know that Astrometry (a branch of Astronomy that do measuring) uses some method called Parallax and Red-shift to measure the distance to stars/galaxies and other celestial objects.. They measure wavelengths, light spectrum and other info that they get from a light of an object.. I cannot tell U exactly how, since it's a serious science talk with physics involved, but I can tell U that YES, they really know precisely how far is anything out there and what size it is and even from what elements it's made of. Astronomy is a HUGE science with much physics involved into it, so for precise understandings I guess U need to have a background in physics..

....I can't possibly believe there isn't life somewhere else.....

Ye, it's kinda out of logic that there are no other life-forms out there.. Actually, a search for Exoplanets (planets out of our solar system) became one of the main tasks for Astronomers recently.. There are already hundreds of planets found "nearby" in our own galaxy.. Planets are hard to spot since they don't shine so bright as stars do (they only reflect the light of it's Host Star), but with new technologies, modern instruments, larger and larger telescopes this search should bring success in finding the Earth-like planets..

Lets wait and see.. ;x

[dilligaf]

...Do we on Earth really know that that is how far away those other galaxies are? And how exactly? ...

"How exactly?" Heh, tell me U don't expect a scientific explanation? I know that Astrometry (a branch of Astronomy that do measuring) uses some method called Parallax and Red-shift to measure the distance to stars/galaxies and other celestial objects.. They measure wavelengths, light spectrum and other info that they get from a light of an object.. I cannot tell U exactly how, since it's a serious science talk with physics involved, but I can tell U that YES, they really know precisely how far is anything out there and what size it is and even from what elements it's made of. Astronomy is a HUGE science with much physics involved into it, so for precise understandings I guess U need to have a background in physics..

I wasn't meaning exactly lol, but yeah, I mean, they can see something that is 13.7 billion light years away from Earth, it's just mind-blowing to see that figure. If I studied in this area I would get a better understanding of how they do it, obviously, but I don't, I work with electronics/electrical. You did pretty much give the answer I was looking for but I still don't understand; like you said, I would need to have a more expansive physics background than I do now to have an idea on how those things you mention work together to allow humans to calculate those massive distances. I guess I will never know..