The Big Religion/God Debate

[Mablak]

I disagree with you right from the start, HHC. If you follow the christian philosophy, you'll find that the thing that matters is what happens after death. There are a lot of christians that believe the rapture will come in their lifetime. Not sure how you can see meaning in life and the things you do if you think the world is going to end soon anyway. Why do something about global? The world's going to end anyway. And if your afterlife is going to be eternal and filled with happiness, it just takes away the meaning of life. It's going to be such a short portion of your existence, why bother at all with it?

Life has meaning because it's finite. I think we can all mention things we take for granted in every day life, but that would've been incredible for other people. Clean drinking water is such a luxury, but we don't notice it because we get it any time we want at any place. In most parts of africa, they know how valuable clean drinking water is. There's your meaning of life for people that lived before us. They won't experience this anymore, but their efforts have led to an increased standard of life for us.
I sure hope my future family will have an even better standard of life after me, even though I personally can't complain about my standard of life.

Life isn't meaningless to atheists. Life is all that matters to atheists. And to say that "god is all-loving" when you see earthquakes and tsunamis and volcanos, flooding from rivers, forest fires, cancer in young people, hereditary diseases, famine, infectious diseases and religious violence (everybody's favourite at the moment) kill off so many people, including the very young, that's such an incredible insult to people to whom life is all that matters. I just don't understand how anyone can trivialise such disasters.

You are right about one thing though, Bart. We shouldn't rob them of their illusion (whether or not it's true, though I clearly don't think it is , but then, they shouldn't rob us of our possibilities. I'm happy to live in a secular country myself, but to further our knowledge in medicine, physics, chemistry etcetera, a higher volume of research makes it go faster. And as much as we grumpy europeans would like to deny it, we need the US as much as they need us (or perhaps more). However, the religious right is putting shackles on research on stem cells and on decisions that should be between doctors and patients. I'm very happy to live in a country that gives people the choice of euthanasia for example, but the people that are stopping this from happening in other countries are the religious people. Gay rights are suppressed by religious people. Female rights are suppressed by religious people. Children's rights are suppressed by religious people.
And yes, most religious people are moderate and nice and reasonable and wear tidy jumpers and eat cheese like real people. But they have to accept that they are the powerbase for the nutters. (copyright Marcus Brigstocke on the last 2 sentences
Religion is fine if you keep it to yourself. Currently, this is not the case.

Well said D1. I think we should "rob" people of their illusions whenever we're able to, but then again it's truly difficult to talk to people in real life about their religious beliefs, especially if they're close friends.

I dunno, I say we cherish the games that make our lives enjoyable, even if we deep down know they hold no meaning and are just that, games.

So let's be nice and not crack down on other people's distractions.  

But HHC, to say that beliefs themselves are simply games is pure, unadulterated nihilism. If everything were a game, you would have to accept that there's no more reason to hold any one belief more than another. But then on the other hand, I'd suggest that if your viewpoint were true depending on what you mean by 'game', it wouldn't really change anything about the importance of a person's beliefs, if your idea of a game connotes subjective importance devoid of objective importance.

It's kind of a tired argument to say that because there's no universal recipe for determining the correct beliefs, we should abandon all hope of finding meaning in life. More importantly, it's kind of a misnomer to deem something a game when a person is neither intentionally treating something as a game, nor is capable of doing something outside the game.

Off topic I know, but I dislike it when people say crazy things.

[TheKomodo]

So can we all agree that if "god" and "heaven" and "hell" exists, Zippo is going to hell? Where he will call Satan a n00b and lucker etc xD

[Thouson]

the bible say about a "hell", but not a fire hell, is a greek word,"Seol"


Is like a sepulture and not a fire place...

[DarkOne]

I'm not saying there are no valuable lessons to learn in the bible, but I refuse to take it as truth, because I can quote too

Genesis 6:6-7 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

mass murder by a god who regrets his mistake.

Romans 26-32 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.

bigotry and condoning their deaths for being who they are.

Luke 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.

Please don't kill me!

I can't speak for other countries, but in the US, atheists are the most mistrusted people and there's a lot of discrimination against atheism.

Because you have to prove to God that you are worthy of rapture. Being a christian itself is not good enough to deserve a ticket to heaven/eternal life, you need to be a good person. And life here on earth is where you get the chance to prove your worth: by taking care of yourself and of others.
As such, there's definitely a point to living: it's the preparation for the afterlife.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I John 5:11 ...God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

I John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Says nothing about how you lead your life. In fact, people who lead good lives, but don't believe in christ are condemned to eternal torture. Seems fair to me!

But what is the meaning of this other than basic survival?
If you survive merely for survival's sake there still isn't any point, because you'll die anyway. You might as well not be born, in the end the result is the same. You're merely delaying the inevitable.

Guess we don't have to celebrate your birthday and holidays and such because they're going to end anyway Such a pity.
Marriage is meaningless, because it's going to end when death sets in.
As I've tried to explain earlier, things are only special if they're, you know, special! Not always present, they are a positive mark compared to the average.
I think it's safe to say that life is quite positive in comparison to death and not yet existing

You don't know why these things happen. Maybe they serve God's plan, maybe the just happen outside of God's control.

There is a very firm understanding of the world we live in. We don't know everything, but there are quite clear explanations for earth quakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, diseases etcetera, so that covers how it happens. I don't understand the need for the question "why", except if you naturally assume that there is a god. Except we don't need one to explain the universe.

These catastrophies may cause tremendous suffering, but at the same time, isn't it the suffering that brings us closer together? Aren't the challenges we face, grave they may be, the things that make us grow as human beings? I'm fairly sure that looking back at past troubles most of us will feel grief, but at the same time, they have made us what we are today. There's bad influences in them, but also value.
People who haven't had any trouble in life rarely grow out to be respectable people. They are like children. Only those who have suffered themselves know what other people go through and how important their support can be. Without individual pain there's really no empathy.

I can say I've had a relatively problem-free childhood. Does that make me immature and not a respectable person? shadymilkman is someone who's had a privileged childhood as well. Is he immature and not a respectable person? The kind of person you end up being is not dependant on how hard your life is, at least not as much as you describe it. It's dependant on how good your parents were. There are plenty of people who've had their share of hardships and it turns them bitter, sometimes even malicious.
There are plenty of marriages that break up because of financial problems. Are you saying this makes them grow as a person? If they had a child, does this make things better for that child in later life? Do orphans usually turn out better people than people who have had parents?

But for christians, with the afterlife in mind, death does not have to be such an awful thing.

This is a terrifying idea to me, because if life has no meaning, then what prevents them from becoming a suicide bomber? What would prevent a christian leader to send soldiers to meaningless wars?

[HHC]

But HHC, to say that beliefs themselves are simply games is pure, unadulterated nihilism. If everything were a game, you would have to accept that there's no more reason to hold any one belief more than another. But then on the other hand, I'd suggest that if your viewpoint were true depending on what you mean by 'game', it wouldn't really change anything about the importance of a person's beliefs, if your idea of a game connotes subjective importance devoid of objective importance.

It's kind of a tired argument to say that because there's no universal recipe for determining the correct beliefs, we should abandon all hope of finding meaning in life.

It's a truth we don't like to accept, but it's still the truth. If you can tell me the meaning of life I'd be happy to offer you my ear.
IMO there's only meaning if there's an afterlife to look forward to.. one that we need to prepare for in this life. Or... if human beings serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things, but as far as I know we're a bunch of animals happening to be roaming this place. Nobody is gonna miss us if we cease to be. The earth and the universe will continue their usual course.

Games are indeed what they are. Real Madrid vs Barcelona may be the most important thing in the world to you, but in the end it's just a game we play to pass the time.

More importantly, it's kind of a misnomer to deem something a game when a person is neither intentionally treating something as a game

Is it?

A serial killer hunting down his victim is playing a game. The victim is playing along, even though I'm pretty dämn sure he or she wants to quit.

nor is capable of doing something outside the game.

A person can take a chair, sit in a field and just wait for death to set in.

The game is not life itself, rather, life is the combination of being, surviving and playing a multitude of different games. Naturally there's a cross-over. A job is a game, but also helps you survive and when you're playing tennis you're also 'being'.

Being is what we do whether we want to or not. Surviving is what we do to prolong being.
The games we play serve no other function other than providing pleasure/distraction. They really hold no deeper meaning, nor do they transform 'existence' in any way.

Women are right when they say football really is nothing more than a bunch of men kicking a ball. But the question is, should they rub it in?
Religion is a desperate attempt to give purpose to life, but deep down, even believers know they are really only trying to escape the inevitable end. Question is, should we scream this into their ears and break their spirits (as much as our spirits were broken) or should we just let them live in their fantasy world, where they are satisfied and gay?

I don't think Cueshark was offended by God-people 'trivialising' Japan, but rather, he's angry because the paradise his parents and priests foretold to be real doesn't really exist. And that rather than being a fairytale (God loves the world, thus the world has to be a nice place), the world is really a place of suffering.
Gengar's statement may be comforting to him, but to others it's like one of those 'motivational' group meetings where some guy tells a tear-jerking story and everyone ends up hugging each other proclaiming life is good, then the next day you wake up and think 'URGGGHHH'.

[TheKomodo]

Do you actually believe on God HHC? Or just defending that side of the debate?

[HHC]

I think it's pretty clear that I don't. Nevertheless, I'm not so sure about an impersonal 'God' or the existence of an afterlife.

I'm only defending the christians' right to be left alone. You should be free to have a sig with the G-word in it without being publicly criticized and harassed.

[Cueshark]

I think it's pretty clear that I don't. Nevertheless, I'm not so sure about an impersonal 'God' or the existence of an afterlife.

I'm only defending the christians' right to be left alone. You should be free to have a sig with the G-word in it without being publicly criticized and harassed.

No HHC.

I disagree totally. 

Using the G-word doesn't automatically give special treatment nor exemption from ridicule.

[TheKomodo]

I've gotta agree with Cue, after all this thread is called a debate.

Like I told Gengar in AG, he can go about his merry way all he wants but when he starts preaching to me, and saying he will pray for me n stuff, that's insulting to me.

[DarkOne]

I'm only defending the christians' right to be left alone.

And as I said, you are correct, but it's a two-way street. I know plenty of christian people who go their merry way and don't try to convert me and I don't try to change their mind about religion. If it helps them, that's fine, but they should keep it to themselves or accept hearing of the opposing view and not get upset about it.

[Dub-c]

As humans, our brains have not evolved to the point where we can even start to understand how and why we exist. If there is a god or a creator that made us exist and gave us purpose, how in turn, does that god or creator exist?

Upon logical human thought it is impossible that we exist, that god exists and that the universe exists. We are made of elements, but how do elements exist? What created them? Ok, if god did, what created god? We believe that everything comes from something. It takes a human mother to have a human baby. But there always has to be a first. How did the very first element or whatever exist? Its impossible . . . . 

[Rodent]

Well... all religions and religious fairy tales, were based on strange behavior of nature. That's just a fact and nothing more. More we are getting into science, more things we do understand and yet more things we discover that we do not understand... if you don't know, fights against scientists are more funny then fights against muslims and christians... there are many new theories that are not proven, and many scientists disagree with each other how something works, and one of them believe in one thing, others believe other thing. Similar thing like in religion, where one "supernatural" thing were dedicated to one god in one religion and to other god in other religion...

Now time is different and we know whole bunch of things, and new supernatural things are not anymore dedicated to gods... I mean... people who do not have knowledge and are not interested in getting some, but are too stubborn and proud to admit that they do not know something they are still trying to explain logically explained things with some stupid arguments. But, noone can be mad at that cause that's basic nature of human

Personally I don't have anything against religious people, and I have much friends among them. We never talk about it cause that lead us to conflicts, and drinking then become less fun...
I like to talk with people that are in mysticism and are trying to connect themselves mentally with nature etc... I do believe that there is something mystic in all those green colors of the world and I'll never try to scientifically explain those things, but concerning modern religions like islam, christianity and similar... I'll just spit in face to anyone who in front of me tries to prove that those religions have sense. If you believe in that, go adn believe, it's not forbidden and I do not mind... but I just don't wanna listen about that!
And worst of all... worst of all is when someone ask me "how can you to not believe?" "you are Serb, you have to believe in god!" ... :palmface:

Now... hate me if you want




"I'm only defending the christians' right to be left alone." concerning this... I never noticed that someone bother christians... I noticed that christians bother others... maybe that's just in Serbia, but dunno...

[Thouson]

I'm not saying there are no valuable lessons to learn in the bible, but I refuse to take it as truth, because I can quote too

Genesis 6:6-7 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

mass murder by a god who regrets his mistake.

Romans 26-32 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.

bigotry and condoning their deaths for being who they are.

Luke 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.

Please don't kill me!

I can't speak for other countries, but in the US, atheists are the most mistrusted people and there's a lot of discrimination against atheism.

Because you have to prove to God that you are worthy of rapture. Being a christian itself is not good enough to deserve a ticket to heaven/eternal life, you need to be a good person. And life here on earth is where you get the chance to prove your worth: by taking care of yourself and of others.
As such, there's definitely a point to living: it's the preparation for the afterlife.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I John 5:11 ...God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

I John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Says nothing about how you lead your life. In fact, people who lead good lives, but don't believe in christ are condemned to eternal torture. Seems fair to me!

But what is the meaning of this other than basic survival?
If you survive merely for survival's sake there still isn't any point, because you'll die anyway. You might as well not be born, in the end the result is the same. You're merely delaying the inevitable.

Guess we don't have to celebrate your birthday and holidays and such because they're going to end anyway Such a pity.
Marriage is meaningless, because it's going to end when death sets in.
As I've tried to explain earlier, things are only special if they're, you know, special! Not always present, they are a positive mark compared to the average.
I think it's safe to say that life is quite positive in comparison to death and not yet existing

You don't know why these things happen. Maybe they serve God's plan, maybe the just happen outside of God's control.

There is a very firm understanding of the world we live in. We don't know everything, but there are quite clear explanations for earth quakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, diseases etcetera, so that covers how it happens. I don't understand the need for the question "why", except if you naturally assume that there is a god. Except we don't need one to explain the universe.

These catastrophies may cause tremendous suffering, but at the same time, isn't it the suffering that brings us closer together? Aren't the challenges we face, grave they may be, the things that make us grow as human beings? I'm fairly sure that looking back at past troubles most of us will feel grief, but at the same time, they have made us what we are today. There's bad influences in them, but also value.
People who haven't had any trouble in life rarely grow out to be respectable people. They are like children. Only those who have suffered themselves know what other people go through and how important their support can be. Without individual pain there's really no empathy.

I can say I've had a relatively problem-free childhood. Does that make me immature and not a respectable person? shadymilkman is someone who's had a privileged childhood as well. Is he immature and not a respectable person? The kind of person you end up being is not dependant on how hard your life is, at least not as much as you describe it. It's dependant on how good your parents were. There are plenty of people who've had their share of hardships and it turns them bitter, sometimes even malicious.
There are plenty of marriages that break up because of financial problems. Are you saying this makes them grow as a person? If they had a child, does this make things better for that child in later life? Do orphans usually turn out better people than people who have had parents?

But for christians, with the afterlife in mind, death does not have to be such an awful thing.

This is a terrifying idea to me, because if life has no meaning, then what prevents them from becoming a suicide bomber? What would prevent a christian leader to send soldiers to meaningless wars?

All this texts, if u analyze impartially, you will see how fair is that...We can talk about this, in pvt, if you want

[nino]

sorry i exist.

[dilligaf]