There are too many clans here on Worms Armageddon, there are too many members in them, and many of these members are inactive. As a result, the league remains inactive. So how about; move all current clans, status, and members to a legacy section, and have 4 pre-made clans that will allow max 6 or 10 members People can choose whatever clan they want be in, but can only change a clan once a season. Minimum members for a clan to partake in league, must be 4 members, but if the 4th member wants to change clan, then that person cannot, unless if there are more members that exceeds 4. If a member has been inactive or not have played at all for a season or more, that person gets automatically removed. There will be no leaders for a clan, perhaps only a moderator or one global league moderator. Name of each clan could reflect the team color of WA, Red Assault, Blue Haven, Green Phoenix, & Yellow Stars. Though it is purely figurative, any name could work, and be voted for.

This could make everything more compact and focused, instead of having everything spread across the map. Because as it is now, it is spread, and it is harder to find a game. If everything gets closer, the easier it could be to find games to play.

What do you think? Could this be a good or a bad idea?

We last heard about 3.8 from Deadcode in January of this year, which is actually good compared to the usual regularity of news. Those posts were really long (especially the changelog) and probably time-consuming to put together. IMO it would be better to get short Twitter-style updates once every 2-4 weeks or whatever, even if they're cryptic and unexplained. For example: "Still alive" or "Crunched some code today, fixed a bug". Leaving us guessing is bad, since guesses can so easily become credible rumours, which in theory could have negative consequences, depending who hears/interprets/spreads them.

I am not signing up for Twitter or any other social media app, just to see an update posted once in or twice a year.

We have already been guessing due to lack of proper communication from the developers. I am sure people lose interest and motivation to further development as time goes on. This can be of numbers of reasons such as life priorities, families and whatnot. But if such ''guessing'' is accurate, a simple forum post would suffice on TuS, instead of transferring over to social media. So if my little birds are correct, then you can kiss your 3.8 update a long good bye, because it is likely not happening any time soon. Then again, perhaps that was the idea to begin with, for us to think that hmm...

We're only a handful of active people that are actually passionate about the game, most newcomers are just casual fans reliving their childhood. Why would developers even bother updating for mere 100 people or so? 

Quote from: TheKomodo on May 16, 2019, 02:15 AM

Quote from: skunk3 on May 14, 2019, 07:24 PM

This subject is entirely opinion-based.

My opinion is that playing W:A and gaming in general is a waste of time... but that is not to say that I still don't do it. I don't see anything wrong with gaming a little... like a couple of times a week for a relatively short amount of time. If you are gaming every single day for several hours per day that is a HUGE waste of time. The older I get the more I recognize gaming as a waste. There is usually something else that could be a better expenditure of time: cleaning, studying, practicing a sport or instrument, exercising, socializing, visiting family/friends, working on art, etc.

There have been times in my past in which I gamed every day for 6+ hours. Work, sleep, gaming. No life. That is no way to live. Excessive gaming like that is a sign of depression and a lack of social ties. Real life is far more important than any game. I think that as long as you are being productive in life and feel generally happy there's nothing wrong with playing W:A or whatever else for a couple of hours every once in a while as a way to relax and have a little fun. I've seen a lot of people try to justify their excessive gaming using a variety of excuses/explanations but I am confident they are just trying to gloss over the fact that they are suffering from depression and are using video games as a coping mechanism.

Time is a very finite resource and as people get older I suspect that MOST will come to the same conclusion that I have. That said, I think that gaming is *slightly* more justified in winter months in which the weather sucks, but even then there's still lots of other things that people can do with their time.

It's similar to drinking alcohol. If you're drinking every single day excessively, that's a problem. If you drink a little bit 2-3 times a week that's not a big deal. Think about it: A day is comprised of 24 hours. If we sleep roughly 8 hours per day, that's 1/3 gone. If we work 8 hours a day on most days, that's 2/3 of your time gone. Between sleeping and working that leaves us with roughly 8 hours per day in which we are to do all of the things that we need to do... and the more time one spends gaming, the less time they are investing towards all of the other things in life, even basic stuff like cooking meals, showering, shopping, etc.

I'm glad you put "entirely opinion-based" before all that 

Some of what you say is somewhat contradictive 

"If you are gaming every single day for several hours per day that is a HUGE waste of time"

Then you say:

"There is usually something else that could be a better expenditure of time:" - "practicing a sport or instrument"

I mean, it's entirely opinion based, so it's subjective.

However I am curious, please elaborate on why doing one thing you like excessively is worse than someone else doing something they like excessively? Isn't the end result of happiness more important than the source of happiness itself?

Also, what if one actually had a career in gaming? So they play 8-12 hours a day 5+ days a week, and make enough money to do what they want in their spare time?

Then what if someone wants to pursue the pre-mentioned path of a professional career in gaming, but in order to do this they need to spend all their available time grinding away to fulfil that desire?

Your example of alcohol is pretty absurd as well lol, why alcohol? Gaming is nothing like alcohol lol, a person can drink 8 hours a day 7 days a week and be dead within months, even weeks, that doesn't happen to a person playing a game, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out... The only major similarity you can put between alcohol and gaming, is that they are both extremely addictive towards specific types of people, but not everyone!

What if someone comes from an extremely wealthy family, they don't need to work, they don't need to clean(they have a maid or whatever), they have dinner made for them, they shop online, it doesn't take long to shower/bathe, at least if you're a guy lol.

I mean yeah, it's a huge waste of time to you, and from your perspective people who game excessively are a problem because they aren't looking at life from your perspective, they don't value the same things you value, if they aren't harming you, or others, don't worry about it.

It's quite normal for people to think other people waste their time, but when you start talking like they have a problem, they could do something better with their lives, they aren't doing what "they need to do" as opposed to the gospel by skunk3, quite frankly that is a form of bigotry and it's slightly condescending as well, it makes you appear to know better than them, and that your life holds more value.

Like I said before, if they aren't harming you, or others, and they seem happy, don't worry about it 

Edit - I won't deny, people that endanger their health, don't wash, eat too much junk, let their teeth rot, their muscles become weak etc, that kinda thing is not good really, but again if they are happy, and accept the consequences, and realize them, who are we to say it's bad?

I'm just saying some people can play most hours of the day each week, and still live healthy lifestyles.

Not all activities are equal. Doing some certain things excessively isn't as bad as doing other things excessively, but a point could be made that doing ANYTHING "excessively" is bad because excess in general is bad. Just because gaming makes someone happy, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a good thing. I, of course, am talking about excessive gaming, not occasional gaming.

Very few gamers are 'professional' gamers. Like 0.00001% probably... so there's no point in bringing that up because not only are they extremely rare, they also game for a living so that is their job. Therefore, gaming for them isn't a waste of time because it is profitable enough to be a job.

Also, most people aren't super wealthy and have everything done for them, and people who are wealthy like that probably have cooler things to do than play video games for hours and hours every single day. Why excessively game if the world is your oyster? I dunno about you but I'd rather be riding a jet ski by some tropical island or travelling to some exotic locale than sitting on my ass playing video games like a potato.

I am not worried about anyone's gaming habits. I'm just expressing my personal opinion on the matter, and my opinion is that gaming for several hours a day every day is not healthy mentally or physically, and my opinion is derived from personal experience. It's not bigotry or me feeling superior or more wise than anyone else. To me it's just basic common sense that if your life is imbalanced like that, it's problematic. Those with gaming addictions always try to justify their behavior with arguments that gravitate towards points such as:

-I'm not harming anyone!
-It makes me happy and being happy is a good thing!
-What makes gaming worse than other past time activities?
etc...

For me those are weak, bullshit arguments and I suspect that those who present them also know they are bullshit but they still want to defend their lifestyle. It simply isn't possible to "play most hours of the day each week, and still live healthy lifestyles." I have never met anyone in my life who excessively games who was NOT depressed or mentally unwell in some way. Not once.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with gaming. I love it. I've been a gamer since the 80's. However, it shouldn't be what you spend nearly all of your free time on. As I said before, time is finite (and the most precious thing we have) and there's so many other things that people can do that add real value and richness to their lives. I'll be 39 this November and if I am extremely lucky I'll have another 40 years to enjoy. I want to make it count, and IMO playing video games excessively is pissing your life away.

Never seen such a nihilistic and cynical viewpoint towards a enjoyable hobby enjoyed by tens of millions. You may define it as absolute truth, but I do not.

Very few gamers are 'professional' gamers. Like 0.00001% probably... so there's no point in bringing that up because not only are they extremely rare, they also game for a living so that is their job. Therefore, gaming for them isn't a waste of time because it is profitable enough to be a job.

How on earth have you come to such conclusion that ONLY 0.00001% are professional gamers? There are many definition of this, many are streamers both on twitch and youtube that makes a living out of streaming video games, particular speedrunning them. Would you say that's a waste of time as well? Would you say Games Done Quick, speedrunning for charity is waste of time?

If you aren't familiar with GDQ, please visit the following link:
https://gamesdonequick.com

Also, most people aren't super wealthy and have everything done for them, and people who are wealthy like that probably have cooler things to do than play video games for hours and hours every single day. Why excessively game if the world is your oyster? I dunno about you but I'd rather be riding a jet ski by some tropical island or travelling to some exotic locale than sitting on my ass playing video games like a potato.

Why would you compare wealthy against poor people? It sucks to be poor yeah, but being wealthy doesn't mean sunshine and butterflies too. There's merits and cons on both side of the show, and being wealthy is not always better. Such class distinction is irrelevant because, both poor and wealthy can play video games. I highly doubt that ALL poor people that LOVES gaming, daydreams of jet skiing and halo jumping from jets. Being poor can be good too, instead of being born into money and status. You build character from poverty but not necessarily everyone goes good, and same goes for the rich too.
Being rich, can cause serious elitism, typically of having the best brands and wares, to show and brag online. I think your viewpoint is misguided by fantasy that doesn't apply for all.

I am not worried about anyone's gaming habits. I'm just expressing my personal opinion on the matter, and my opinion is that gaming for several hours a day every day is not healthy mentally or physically, and my opinion is derived from personal experience. It's not bigotry or me feeling superior or more wise than anyone else. To me it's just basic common sense that if your life is imbalanced like that, it's problematic. Those with gaming addictions always try to justify their behavior with arguments that gravitate towards points such as:

-I'm not harming anyone!
-It makes me happy and being happy is a good thing!
-What makes gaming worse than other past time activities?
etc...

For me those are weak, bullshit arguments and I suspect that those who present them also know they are bullshit but they still want to defend their lifestyle. It simply isn't possible to "play most hours of the day each week, and still live healthy lifestyles." I have never met anyone in my life who excessively games who was NOT depressed or mentally unwell in some way. Not once.

I am glad you are expressing your thoughts but I just can't agree with it.

If you receive something good of doing something you genuinely like, there is no problem. I met many people who loves gaming and plays for hours and never had any sort of illness at all. Then again, my arguments for skunk is likely flawed and weak. Not all can just accept basic truth, that some people chooses something that they love, instead of going for something that in theory is defined as better by someone else.

So what is gaming addiction? What is excessive play? 2-4 hours a day? I doubt it. Many movie fans sit and watch movie for 2 hours straight and then watch another. I would raise flags if a person plays 8 hours straight a day without any side activities, and outside communication. Then again, it doesn't NEED to be classified as an illness. If a person is AWARE of their issue, and sees it causes undesirable results as a whole, then regulation is required to take. The world is moving mostly online, not all have same opportunities as others regardless of their backgrounds.

And no no, I am not encouraging people to sit and linger on with what they are doing. I am saying it is fine, as longest there are no physical, psychological and real life predicament that hinders their ability function properly, and to seize other opportunities that could be of interest.

I guess it just depends on how much time you put into it in your situation and if you feel tired playing it or not, and if you have better things to do in your free time. For me, yep, its currently a waste to play WA, but I just have to play some other games occasionally, its a part of who I am.

Exactly, it is a matter of perspective. It is not as black and white as one might think. There can be many benefit of playing any video games, as well as many disadvantages. It is a matter of moderation between what is more important. If a video game consumes too much over what should be prioritized, then the fault lies in the person. Then, there's so many different kind of lifestyles, some are more healthier than others and vice versa. Some might have come to accept their situation of life, and use any game/hobbies as clutch, and as a tool to escape. If one is however is aware and strive for something that is defined to be better, surely it should be commended and cheered for.

I personally don't think anything is a waste of time. It is just a matter of how you look at it.

Quote

Do you think video games a waste of time?

fixed the thread title for you

Oh sweet little Charlie, thank you so much for your contribution, it surely wasn't a waste of time! I salute you ^^

I have removed blow torch & drill, but kept the 3 girders. Bungee is present as well at infinite quantities.

Please enjoy

Introduction
Zook and Rope, (ZaR) is a Worms Armageddon scheme & community, developed by Kradie, sm0k and spleen17 back in early 2015. After Zar's initial inception, it quickly gained a following. To date, Zar is the biggest roping community of 100 members, & the biggest community on Worms Armageddon.

Zar is a hybrid of WA roper & w2roper. Featuring only Zook & Rope, devoid of any other familiar items and settings. The scheme is tough & relentless, it is not designed for the faint of hearts, but it is made to have fun, but as well to acquire a better consistency within oneself. It is meant to invoke confidence in the mind, & abolish fear of failing, and to become a more capable roper.

Zar can help player lower the dependence of parachute, and focus purely on minimalistic arsenal at disposal ''Zook & Rope.''  The goal is to gather people with the same mindset that favors the subtle fearless approach. Zar Roper, is one Zar scheme of many under the Zar's cataolgue of schemes that focuses on fun, focus and speed. Because of the Zar's subschemes, it has helped Zar to grow, and reach out to other ropers & enthusiasts alike.

History
In early 2015 on Worms Armageddon, three players: sm0k, spleen17, & Kradie made a game mode called ZaR Roper. The creative process of ZaR Roper started when sm0k and Kradie played a Roper. Kradie meandered on the notion why there hadn't been a popular rope scheme with no parachute. Soon after Sm0k showed Kradie an old version of Roper that was derived from the birthplace of rope games Worms 2. This scheme that sm0k showed is commonly known as ''w2roper''. w2roper was very popular in the early days on Worms 2. Though it quickly faded into obscurity in favor of an arguably a more refined version now known as Roper on the newer worms entries.

Apparently to the experience of both sm0k and Kradie: w2roper was arguably more difficult of its successor Roper. However it was not enough difficult for the two to enjoy its virtues. The duo began to tweak w2roper and added new Ideas to it. Each new Implementation helped shape the scheme into its own Identity. The scheme's weapon & tool Inventory was left only with one bazooka, and only one acrobatic mobility tool the ninja rope. From here on out the player spleen17 joined the creative process, and soon after the scheme came to be known as ZaR (Bazooka and Rope).

Immediately after the conception of the ZaR scheme, the trio created a community to solidify their crowning jewel in order to carry it into the future of Worms Armageddon. Ironically the name of this community came to be known as ''ZaR''. The group became an instant hit among ropers of WA, and gained a large following. Anyone who liked the scheme could join regardless of their skill level.

As time marched on, both sm0k and spleen17 became more preoccupied with real life priorities that required their attention. Kradie kept the train going forward, he recruited new members, created new ZaR schemes, and ZaR merchandises. To this date the ZaR community is the biggest rope group on WA with a little over 100 members. This is a huge accomplishment considering that the WA community isn't as big and active.

Zar Classic Scheme rules & setup:
2 worms per player (unless if it is FFA or 2vs2).
Normal roper rules apply. (CBA, KTL, AFR.)
Instant mines, including dud mines.
Destructible terrain ON.
No parachutes, zook and rope only.
12 second turns, 5 second retreat time
Firebombing from rope only is allowed.
Mine-knocking (shooting at a mine from rope only so it falls on a player) is allowed without CBA, so long as the zook itself doesn't do any damage opponent's Worm(s).
No blocking.
When the Sudden Death reveals itself & the gong sounds,  w2w replaces CBA.
Using super banana is legal... if you reach it...

Zar Classic tactics
Players having a tough time in Zar ''can'' always be the underdog unless if they try to turn the table against their suppressor. The key to this, is not to push yourself if there's impossible crate spawned in an inconvenient location. This can further your submissive position if pursuit it taken. Instead it is best to hide in inconspicuous place, normally a place where zook is hard to hit.
You can pursue difficult health crate at your own risk, but you can also lead the action to your newly exposed position. This is a risk factor, both players will not know where the next health crate going to spawn.
Sometime health crate can spawn behind a mine that hinders the player's ability to attain it, that's why sometime it is better to do nothing, or  reposition yourself. You can also knock the mine away from the crate that its blocking, or jab a mine onto another player with bazooka.

Map choice for Zar Roper,
It is recommended to use thin maps with little to no land feet. This is because, e.g if both right and left side have long and deep cavern, health crate ''can'' spawn within these subterranean areas. That's called a crate rape. That is a very unfortunate scenario if a player is on the opposite side of the map. Zar has successfully manage to define its map choice over time, without having complex crate raped maps. With thin walls, or parts of the island that can be destroyed to make a shortcut, it can compensate for short turn time, and thus eliminate some of the luck factor of crate spawn.
Then again, the right map is subjective, and a personal choice, based on skill & preference. 

Zar Subschemes
There are many genre of Zar that can be played, some deviate from Zar's original setup, that introduces weapons, tools & contraption such as; freeze, grenades, mines, skunk, pigeons, girders, terrain objects, & bridges. These elements that are incorporated into the subschemes are designed to offer an new & fun experience. It can be seen as a gimmick, but as a whole, it gives Zar a more dynamic foothold for people to thread into.

List of  noteworthy Zar Schemes
CaveZar
Xtreme Zar
Xtreme CaveZar
BridgeZar
Death Zar
Pro Zar
HangZar
Zar Zero
Big zar RR
Zar Surfer

CaveZar
CaveZar was sm0k's initial idea, & was introduced to Kradie. CaveZar is Classic Zar in a closed cave environment, featuring some to minor terrain objects that behaves as obstacles. In this mode, you can drown and fall out on the sides, only if the wall are breached.
The best tactical approach here, is to hide on the upper levels, in a crack, slope or tunnel, where a blast from a bazooka is tough to hit. You will need a good aim and be creative with the wind that is given to you.

Xtreme Zar
This edition of Zar is insanely difficult, and is recommended to play on a none-linear warmer map. In short, Xtreme Zar feat; 10sec turn time, 3sec retreat, no hot seat time, 6 oil drums, nukeclear fallout, freeze and skunk. You need 100% focus here to prevail, there's no time for multitasking in this mode. Pay attention to round time, to avoid hazardous infection of the nukeclear fallout.

Xtreme CaveZar
Xtreme Zar in a cave map with no walls on sides. Exiting the borders of the map will result in instant death.

BridgeZar
This version can be seen as CaveZar 2, a follow up to CaveZar. You play in a closed cave area on grass terrain, & with very few obstacles. There are no land on the bottom half of the map, only a long thin drawn line that acts as a bridge. Both opponents have 3 worms each with worm select, infinite bazooka, rope, & girder. The girders are not for blocking worms, but to patch broken bridge, or to shield a worm from imminent danger.

Pro Zar
This adaptation is like Zar Classic, with highest possible fall damage added. Depending on fall impact, a worm can lose a significant amount of health, or die instantaneously.  It is recommended to rope with confidence, because here, there are no mercy. Hide well, typical on the bottom of the map, or high in a difficult place, and pray that your opponent's aiming dexterity is weak.

DeathZar
This Zar variant feat sudden death from the start of the match. Water rise is set to low, and will continuously rise for each turn that passes. A standard roper map is applied here, 3 worems each player, & everyone must complete a wall to wall (w2w) cycle on rope before they can land their attack.

HangZar
All the usually Zar classic shenanigans are present in this version, with the added command /batty. You type this command in the host room before starting the game. This will allow players to hang from rope while idle, & during other player's turn. Batty mode offers new possibilities, ease of access from a hide, and more complex hide as well. Hides that can challenge their opponent's aim.

Zar Zero
Zar with ZERO (0) rope retreat, /batty command from host room enabled, zook, rope, and pigeon with lowest destructive power.  Careful where you attack from, you might hit yourself, and you might be easily exposed. You will be left hanging once you send your attack.

Big zar RR
BIG Z RR another take on Big RR, in which where chute is removed, and bazooka for retreat. Through gameplays with Kradie, people have stated that Big Zar RR is a hardcore version of the original version.

Zar Surfer
ZS is played on a two or a single figured stretched island, that floats over water, that gives room on the sides and under, for rope maneuvering like; pump, spikes, shadows, surfing and whatnot. Player must surf and get health crate in whichever order and than attack. Surfing is defined as 2 skims (bounce on water) max. In sudden death, player must surf and touch both walls in order to attack.

Reception
Critical reception were mixed, some tainted Zar as a blatant ripoff of WA Roper & w2roper, while some argued that Zar is a refreshing & fun take on the roping genre. Some even went as far and said that Zar is Hysteria's version of Roper. Despite the latter, the conservative riled against Zar & prevented its inclusion in to the main classic league.  However, Zar was admitted to the TRL (The Rotating League), through a community poll where the majority ruled in favor. Some players sees ZaR as a copy of other existing scheme, and therefore not the defnite version, while other suggests otherwise.

League
ZaR has failed to accumulate enough inquires for ZaR to be part of any league. ZaR has hosted its own cup and tournaments to certain avail, but recent ones failed because short on players. Although, other tournaments hosted by others outside ZaR were also low on players. The lack of competitive interest within ZaR community and possible overall league, leads ZaR to no where in the competitive space. Luckily it thrives heavily in the casual fun department.

Did you know?

April the 1st of 2016, spleen17 was removed from his rank as a leader and member of Zar. He was pretty upset about it, and later found out it was a April fools staged by Kradie.

The longest Zar membership of 1438 days goes to Tomi. The shortest membership of 7 days goes to Sock, excluding spleen17's with 4 days of membership due to TUS technically issues.

The only legacy Zar members that hasn't quit is kraafty, jh0nny, & XanKriegor.

During the 2016 US Election, Kradie made a bet with TheWalrus, if Donald Trump would win, Walrus must join Zar and be a member for one year. Walrus left half through, and later said he would join again. Kradie told Walrus; you only join if you want, the bet doesn't matter anymore. Walrus did not join again.

Kradie never understood why there wasn't any popular rope schemes that didn't include parachute.

Zar was going to feat only 1 mine, but upped to 3 and later 5.

As of now, total of 25 people quitted Zar.

Some Zar members were against having Zar in TuS classic league.

During the early days of ZaR, people thought it would die after 2 weeks or so, due to boredom.

Csongi is a undercover member of ZaR, and also is SSS (Super Sexy Star).

Adnan is the only member that says ZoRRo instead of ZaR. It is also his secret language that he speaks & provokes on others. It is theorized to be a calling for mating ritual.

The term ''Zarred'' is used in ZaR when parachute was SUPPOSED to be there in other schemes and save you. Free fall & collision does not apply.

The definition of Zarring means that you are actively playing a ZaR scheme. ''Hey bro, let's zar?'' ''Nah I am currently zarring atm''.

What people have said about Zar

By Dennis'FD
''I like Zar & the community, normally I hate roper''

By XanKriegor
''i cant even remember when i been joining regular roper last time ''

By Zippo
''too much sex in zar games''

By doc
''ZaR definetely makes me feel like this game should live for a long time,without communities it's really a mess. When ppl join your games they are guranteed a good time. ''

By blitz aka dibz
''I like it, hope others play also. I'm pretty used to it.''

By x'Titan'x
I think it's very cool but pretty hard and challenging.This mode plays really cool skullful players''

By Pinboy
Zar is the  mode that is very skill intensive and because of the lack of a chute, the strict timer, and the destructable landscape it is hard for new players to get into this mode because it takes alot of skill, alot of improvisation on the rope, and insane amount of speed and obviously knowledge of shooting the bazooka from the rope

By Sensei; ZAR is not my jam and could never see it as great competitive scheme due to 0 sec mines. Also being chuteless with lower amount of time and having zook as only weapon which can get pretty nasty considering random winds. Tho, some proven rope masters of community enjoy this strip down variant of a Roper scheme.. So I'm going with the green light! - Sensei

Thank you Magnus for your feedback,and your critique is right. That mobility is tough in this scheme, and therefore I have taken the liberty to update this scheme by adding; Infinite blow Torch & drill. Both of these tools does zero damage to the worms now, they are tolls, not weapons. Also there are now total of 3 girders that can be placed over the entire map.There's also infinite bungee too.

Because of these implementation, the scheme feels more complete and diverse. Then again, it could ''mislead it''. I have had many good games without the added content though. Keep in mind, scheme is still in development, and might receive more fine tuning. Perhaps the added tools will be removed? Who knows...

 thought of having freeze in it. This could be a useful tool to skip infection. So e.g; You can choose to freeze or do serious damage  and receive infection.

Anyways, keep playing and bring more feedback