Quote from: TheKomodo on August 06, 2019, 09:02 AM

Quote from: Kradie on August 06, 2019, 08:22 AM
As far as I know, when I maneuver through various paths and obstacles of all forms and sizes, I am constantly aware of the fact that there is no parachute to bail me out due to a slip-up. But same can be said about having parachute too, but with no parachute, it adds extra layer.

Let's talk about Big RR and TTRR which are the main roping schemes where you don't take advantage of knocking with parachute(even though the following applies to all rope schemes).

With or without parachute, you are constantly aware, especially when competing against the best players in the world where every second counts, that if you make 1 mistake you can lose the game.

With or without parachute, people are always trying their hardest not to fail.

True, but again, without parachute it can add an extra layer of discipline not to fail.

Quote from: TheKomodo on August 06, 2019, 09:02 AM
I'd prefer to say learning to rope without parachute is more needlessly punishing, less efficient and generally takes longer to master rope.

History is proof of that in itself, it's 20 years Kradie, if roping without parachute was so groundbreaking, so awesome, so incredibly impressive then everyone would be doing it, think about that.

20 years with parachute, gives it a tremendous advantage against no parachute. Parachute is simply embedded into the brain of players, that it makes it extremely difficult for them to consider no parachute option. Sure you could say ''Well Kradie, if people LOVE NO parachute, just disable it in hostingbuddy''. It ain't that easy as I explained it. Plus parachute has a monopoly.
Groundbreaking? When I made Zar it was looked at groundbreaking. Even people enjoy big rr without parachute. They have told me that they found it more interesting.

Quote from: TheKomodo on August 06, 2019, 09:02 AM
As i've already said, the biggest difference between learning to rope with and without parachute, is time.

You are not using your time wisely if you aren't using parachute to learn how to rope, you are wasting your time.

Once you are good enough to rope around confidently, then, if you fancy showing a display of confidence, you can remove the parachute, but I still think it's wise to keep parachute just in the event of a lag spike or screen tear etc.

I think that's a bit subjective viewpoint actually.  It haven't been documented and proven. Your only source of statistics would be the 20 year with parachute, which itself is biased & one sided as f@#!.

QuoteYou are claiming, that without parachute, you will be more aware of your maneuvering skills, which is bollux, because the rope physics stay the same with or without parachute, and you can still see everything that you will be using to connect rope to to maneuver with.

Where do you even get these ideas???

So, wait, are you suggesting people learn how to rope without parachute? Or people who already know how to rope should just do it without parachute?

Because either way I don't see the point in arguing this topic, if they want to play ZaR for example, a scheme without parachute, they will just do it, and get better naturally with practise.

As far as I know, when I maneuver through various paths and obstacles of all forms and sizes, I am constantly aware of the fact that there is no parachute to bail me out due to a slip-up. But same can be said about having parachute too, but with no parachute, it adds extra layer.

People can learn to rope with or without parachute. Without parachute is more hardcore.

QuoteAlso in Big RR, which I guess could be done without parachute, but still you can generally get better faster because you aren't losing time when you fall, so you get to keep going, and when the mistake is made with or without parachute, it's still obvious where the mistake was made, and you will learn from your mistakes.

Yes I can get by that too. But, when you fail from a climb, and your turn ends, it can add as an extra punch to the face, telling you to do it better. But with parachute, it deploys all the time, and it can give a false sense of accomplishment. Sure you could get better, but if you switch to no parachute, the painstakingly mistake will be more obvious to consider and analyze.

Quote from: lalo on August 05, 2019, 10:52 PM
Kradie has never been a revelant roper or player, why would anyone waste time discussing what is the better way to improve roping with a nobody lol.

That's funny, because I think majority of veterans and experienced players here are nobodies. Here is why. People like Lalo sees themselves as aristocrats on high horses that walks above and on people without knowing them. How? Well think about it, do we see any of legacy & skilled players mingle with the commoners on Wormnet? Do we see them just play funners with new people that they never met?  No. Because they're more busy counting their league points, and judging everyone else. If someone were to take the time to appreciate the current state of WA, then WA could thrive more. But no one here seem to care so much, instead they bath in their own egotistical filth and self-righteousness.

So seeing Komodo even bothering discussing here with me is commendable and he have earned some of my respect because of this. Just because we don't agree on everything, doesn't mean we have to be enemies. That's just how it is.

You might say that I am not relevant, and experienced, but that's something I would expect from coming from majority of you that have had couple of games with me. Some of you I have never had a decent conversation with.

Quote from: TheKomodo on August 05, 2019, 08:51 PM
#4 - That's an outrageous claim, with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

Think about it, while you navigate on rope, chances are (No idea of %, depend on skills, scenario etc) you can accidentally hit/slide on whatever terrain and objects that you try to maneuver through & around. This can result a turn to be saved with parachute, while with no parachute, it will not be there. But there are no study on this to support this claim, it will likely never be documented.

Quote from: TheKomodo on August 05, 2019, 08:51 PM
You ask "How about master without it?" and the simple answer is because it saves time and you can learn how to rope quicker without having to worry about wasting time waiting on your next turn.

Yeah I don't think you have roped with parachute more than most people here, but this one is hard to prove so we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

I mastered it pretty quickly, and so have many others. Why should it be difficult for a veteran? Oh you probably meant beginners.

All opinions are subjective, but if it sounds like I pass my own opinion as facts, that's because I believe it. Just as you believe in your own opinion.

Quote from: TheKomodo on August 05, 2019, 06:11 PM

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
So when I started to implement my own comparison, it is not ok?

It would be ok, if you hadn't said it wasn't ok, then proceeded to do it yourself anyway. This is the reason we're stuck in this loop, and i'll keep going until you admit it, or shut-up.

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
I think having NO parachute teaches discipline.

That's fine, because you said you think 1st, you didn't present it as a fact, that's ok.

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
Your focus level increases with NO parachute.

Bullsh*t, your focus level will increase, by simply focusing more, with or without parachute, stop talking sh*t Kradie.

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
You will be more aware with NO parachute.

More aware of what? The Bolivian Navy on manoeuvres in the South Pacific? You can't even 100% complete a sentence...

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
You can be super fast and do freestyle with NO parachute.

Yep, you are right there, but the same applies if you said "You can be super fast and do freestyle with parachute".

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
You can still have the same amount of fun with NO parachute.

You can, but also, you may not.

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
But with parachute, you plant a seed in your brain, and you will remember that you are SAFE with parachute. While you are FEARLESS without parachute.

Bullsh*t, you are not safe with parachute, you are safer with parachute, but you are not safe, you can still fall, you can still end turn, you can still fail.

You're talking sh*t again Kradie.

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
I am not biased.

Yes you are.

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
I have roped with parachute more than most people here

No you haven't.

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
People who have NOT fought hard will NEVER know discipline

Playing Worms Armageddon is not fighting hard.

You're talking sh*t again. Stop talking sh*t Kradie.

Since you obviously struggle to understand what discipline means:



Therefor, you can be extremely disciplined with or without parachute in Worms Armageddon.

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
I have overcome roping without parachute.

Well done, you learned something anyone else can do but most choose not to because nobody gives a f**k, bravo!

Quote from: Kradie on August 05, 2019, 01:42 PM
It sounds like I am contradicting myself, doesn't it?

No, it makes you sound like you are talking sh*t again Kradie.

1. Then it wouldn't be ok of you to start addressing it. I figured why the hell not since everyone else did.

2. I still believe it is best method of discipline and for hardcore gameplay.

3. There is no shit here Komodo. You want to focus more to avoid navigational error.

4. More aware of your maneuvering skills Komodo.

5. It is more noteworthy without parachute and freestyle.

6. Yep.

7. Still without parachute, you will be more careful by default, yet have super agility. But with parachute, you are automatically accustomed with the thought parachute will be there to save you. This is where many skilled players falls victim with their petty lines ''I miss chute''. How about master without it?

8. Nope. We can say yes and no all day long.

9. 7 years of roping.

10. If you wish not to improve, go easy and have fun without taking responsibility. Otherwise, man up and take ownership of yourself.

11. Majority don't, because they aren't capable of sustaining the required mastering of no parachute. IT is embarrassing, less experienced players play just fine without parachute.

Quote from: TheKomodo on August 05, 2019, 07:29 AM
Twisting your words? I quoted exactly what you said.

So now we've reached the point where i've used your own words against you, and you can't handle that.

If you want to make ridiculous assumptions, give up, and then in a more polite fashion, say the equivalent of "screw you guys, i'm going home"(that's a South Park reference in case you don't understand), that's fine by me.

If your purpose was truly just to find out what people prefer, chute or no chute, you would have simply asked that and said no more, and so here we are.

This topic was to find out whether people prefer parachute in rope based schemes or not. It is also about why, and  to have a discussion based on that. Then someone said ''Parachute in rope schemes is like helmet when on motorcycle.''- A real life comparison. So when I started to implement my own comparison, it is not ok? Roping with parachute, is like fences when playing bowling.

So yes, here we are, because you are building a narrative of your own design. Yet, you aren't willing to listen so I will try again to explain. I think having NO parachute teaches discipline. Your focus level increases with NO parachute. You will be more aware with NO parachute. You can be super fast and do freestyle with NO parachute. You can still have the same amount of fun with NO parachute.
But with parachute, you plant a seed in your brain, and you will remember that you are SAFE with parachute. While you are FEARLESS without parachute.

I am not biased. I have roped with parachute more than most people here, and still there are rare instances where I do have parachute in roping schemes like Warmer. People who have NOT fought hard will NEVER know discipline, and I have overcome roping without parachute. It sounds like I am contradicting myself, doesn't it? I like Coca Cola Zero more than regular Coke, but that doesn't mean I avoid it all together. It is rare instances where consume it.

You are clearly not fit to discuss this particular matter. You keep twisting my words so it can fit your own understanding. I have said my piece, you keep misinterpreting it, and I can't help you with that.

I advice you to lean back and reflect. That's it for now.

My mistake was to indulge myself a conversation with you that is long overdue. 

I have presented my case clearly with added inquires to support it.
I have countered replies and sentences that seemed reasonable.

I am not exaggerating though. You keep adding layers over layers until things aren't clear anymore.

I have no bias whether there is parachute or not.
I am not stubborn, we see things differently.

Also, lag is a common problems for all gamers alike. Competitive or not, you don't seem me complaining about it.

I think you are over exaggerating a bit too much. Editing and playing schemes is normal thing to do, and part of the game. Sure you can argue that ''So is having parachute'' and to that I would say yes, but to that particular scheme that requires it. Should a man with a broken foot use a crutch? Yeah or a wheelchair. Point is, you are capable of roping without parachute.  But people won't, because they're biased and stubborn.

Buying a new keyboard, mouse, whatever, can indeed help you get better. It can provide better quality of life, pleasure, a short dopamine drive, but it's not a crutch or cheat because it is available. Sure you could say ''Well parachute is available'' BUT only to the schemes that requires it. IT seems like many people are dependent on this safety net because they don't trust themselves enough.  There is totally lack of responsibility, and therefore eliminating consequences of what could happened.

When I said permanent death, I was referring to a stupid real life scenario not in a video game.

But come on man, only a fool would climb a mountain in real life without a rope.  Let alone standing on a bike in full motion.
https://youtu.be/sI7HLtMfq34

My point is that; in video games, there are no permanent death, you can try as many times you like. But in real life, if you faint on a motorbike WITHOUT helmet, the chances of survival is LESS. Because AGAIN you can fail many times without parachute, and still be able to pick yourself up and win.

You talk about parachute as safety net, but in reality it is a crutch, a reminder that you can fail. It is OK to fail, no shame in it, but my point is that you will be more aware and disciplined with no parachute. Almost said ''No protection''. Then I guess someone would come along with a real life comparison of having sex.
I can also make comparison if others do, that's why the children analogy is good.  Take responsibility and learn from your mistakes. Same goes without parachute. IT is so basic and I don't get why I have to explain this.

I appreciate your acknowledgement and compliment about being skilled with no parachute. Because I think people that do rope without parachute are to be commended, and should be more recognized.

But as I said, I am not dismissing parachute, I am not asking to have it removed and deleted from history. I am asking the community what they are comfortable with, with or without parachute. I made my case, I have given my opinions. If you don't agree, fine, but that doesn't make us enemies. 

QuoteAny person with a sane mind knows that racing a worm without a parachute is foolish.

It's a video game, there's no physical injury applied, but perhaps in the mental mind if one can't endure the punishment.

QuoteYou would rope without parachute yet play cautious and carefully, in a similar display of danger than people who play with parachute but rope incredibly fast doing tricks and showing off.

You can rope incredible fast just as you would with or without parachute. In WxW you have to be fast anyway.

QuoteSure, having no parachute is good for you, but to the extremely superior majority of people who enjoy roping schemes having no parachute is extremely bad.

Having a parachute is a superior training tool, than having no parachute, there are many reasons why, one of the most obvious being it's faster to get back into action.

If I had to wait several turns everytime I fell without parachute back in the day, i'd seriously have told this game to f**k off.

You say that parachute is a superior training tool, it almost sound like it's a cheat, an unfair advantage vs no parachute. If you f@#! up, that's on YOU, not anyone else's.

QuoteThat's because you were a noob, everyone was when they 1st started, but if there was no parachute, it would have taken you longer to get better.

That's not even documented, and I can say with certainty I had players Improved with no parachute. If you f@#! up, you tell yourself to avoid the mistake. It is like with children, they remember when they are talked to. If there are no consequences of their action, there will be mistakes again. It is like with no parachute, you remember your fail and avoid it.

Quote from: TheKomodo on August 04, 2019, 05:06 AM
Well, you can actually compare parachute in roping to wearing a helmet when driving a motorbike, it's safety with the main point being, if you crash/fall, you can still survive versus no protection = dead, and pretty much one of the main goals in life is to stay alive, and likewise for roping, stay alive. So yeah, it's a very useful and comparative analogy.

I understand where you are coming from Kradie, it truly is hardcore to play without parachute and a testament to high skills, but in general another reason why parachute is a godsend is that this game is infamous for having screen tearing/lag spikes etc, so having that backup safety net for something that is out of your control is very fair.

Try this instead, make a list of pros & cons for having parachute, i'm pretty sure the pros will outweigh the cons.

Video games is a form of escapism that allows us to shape whatever reality within the boundaries of the game. Any person with a sane mind knows that riding a motorbike without a helmet is foolish. If you fall off from the bike, it might as well be your last thing you will ever do. EXCEPT in a video game, where real life is at pause, and you can do whatever in the virtual world. If there was a racing game in which you could simply remove the helmet, would I do it? Sure! Would I jump out of an airplane high up in the skies? Hell yes! Why? It is fun! I've done this many times in GTA. Would I go outside start punching, kicking people, shoot up a strip club and kill everyone? Hell no. Do you see where I am getting at? Throw away your moral ethics, in video game it is all about having a good time! 
So having no parachute is good, it teaches you discipline, and it can be just as fun with or without parachute. When I go back to say roper, I feel ashamed over myself, and embarrassed by others, because of the freaking parachute keeps activating on every turn.

My bias is eliminated, I just happen to favor no parachute. 

Quote from: Sensei on August 03, 2019, 06:45 PM
Young Blaster from #ag had best comment regarding this.
Parachute in rope schemes is like helmet when on motorcycle.

So, Kradie, when you feel reckless - do it alone on race track and don't involve others. Especially newcomers.
Who knows how many we lost cause you didn't give chute to those poor ppl.

I will involve as many as I please, and there's nothing you can do to stop me.

This is a 2D video game, not a motorcycle race in real life. That's like comparing oranges and apples, and simulation and real life. In Worms Armageddon, you don't get physically hurt, only your mental state if you can't Improve.

Also I would like to emphasize that you can get full and same speed without parachute. You just need to get used to it.

Quote from: Triad on August 03, 2019, 12:49 PM
No offense Kradie, and don't take it personally, but in my personal opinion Big ZaR RR is the dumbest ZaR variant or Big RR variant I have ever seen yet.

So Big RR is almost completely luck free scheme, right? There are two minor things preventing it to be 100% luck free. One of them is parachute. Since wind value is always random, it adds a certain luck element. But there are some stuff to consider: First, it becomes a more welcoming scheme for beginners. They can fail but if they have parachute they still have chance to keep going. I mean if you are good, people won't catch you just because they got a parachute. You know Sensei's TT Big RR Challies, right? I think they are great way to compete Big RR offline and really welcomes everyone. They have parachute AND ldet module, where your turn never ends even if you fail. Does that make noobs beat pros? Nope. Just take a look at winners in challenges list. Nonentity won every challenge he participated. Parachute or even ldet won't change the outcome. So why make things difficult for beginners in a game that is already losing player base every year? I personally improved my roping mostly by playing big rr with ldet like sensei's scheme back in the day. We had similar challenges with an identical scheme in UC site. Since it was beginner friendly, it attracted more people and those people improved themselves thanks to it.

Second thing about parachute, wind value might be random but they don't bring significant luck. Not to mention, when 3.8 eventually arrives, we'll have option to set a default wind value, which will remove this luck factor for good.

Now, the other luck factor in the current Big RR schemes are bananas. There are certain times (for example during a long fly or a fall) where throwing a nana right at optimal time is not really possible. For that reason, I always use no nana 40 sec scheme in funners and always suggest to play this way in competitive games. And your idea is replace it with a f@#!in zook? A weapon that adds even more luck factor since it's affected by wind. Completely ridiculous.

Quote from: Kaleu on August 03, 2019, 12:35 AM
My opinion is, there's more skill and strategy involving rope knocking (high fall pile, hide etc), than trying to don't lose your turn playing with half speed plus great chances to end up panicking with a self hit zook lol.
This statement is limited to battle rope schemes. Racing schemes are argueable.

I completely agree, parachute is definitely a must for battle rope schemes.

Quote from: WTF-8 on August 03, 2019, 06:30 AM
I'd miss lazy falls

Yes, I also sometimes do this deliberately to save time.

I didn't take this personal at all quite the contrary, I am glad

Anyhow. I have nothing against parachute in rope schemes, what I am saying they behaves as a trainer mode, typical for beginners, and therefor can diminish the punishment. If there is no brutal punishment, then it opens up for reckless and inconsequential roping. If you commit numerous mistakes with parachute, then automatically you become accustomed to it. But with a couple of mistakes with no parachute, will without a doubt hardwire your brain to avoid past mistakes, and Improve your roping. You will become more comfortable, and confident, and therefore introducing swift and efficient roping.

Beginners will get used to this, I had many beginners in my games of zar and big zar rr. Many of them have failed countless of time but yet they come back and improved. Majority of my games are funner, and mistakes are welcomed, but that's how everyone get better.

People are getting more aware of big zar rr, because it is interesting because it has no parachute. The bazooka makes it interesting as well, because it is all about timing when to release it. It gives you 5 second retreat, and it is up to each player to decide if it is worth the risk to fire the bazooka or not, depending on the wind and surrounding areas. The handling of the bazooka is also a skill in itself. When to fire, how to fire, how to avoid and claim those 5 seconds. You got used to it, and you just need keep calm and not panic.

If you can't rope with full speed with no parachute, then you surely lack confidence in your own ability. There's many form of roping, but if you are only about showing off, doing 10 tricks in one short turn, then you are better off doing that in a warmer or trick race. Why even play roper or even a shopper where there are 30s and do hundreds of tricks before attacking? Sure, one could argue ''It is fun and enjoyable'' And to some extent I do agree. But isn't it better just to do a nice efficient turn, with a few cool tricks that can benefit the turn in hand? Why do you even have to compromise your turn with risky moves where parachute saves you on each possible fail? It is better to do these risky moves when they are called for, otherwise you will look incompetent for each time parachute activates.

I have seen experienced ropers fail over and over because they favor freestyle and recklessness over efficiency. You can be just as fast if you just adapt.

It is kind of sad, that people are so reliant on this trainer mode it is embarrassing. To be honest, parachute should only be in warmers.

I've been roping without parachute since the inception of ZaR community. Recent years I have been thinking ''Why do we need parachute in popular rope schemes? It totally feels like trainer mode is enabled holding your hand''.  New people that comes to my rope games without parachute  doesn't always question the absence of parachute, instead they try to adapt. Many have successfully adapted and accepted the punishment that comes with no parachute and improved. It is fun for them to overcome and that's why it is so enjoyable.

Big Zar RR have batty to compensate for lack of parachute, and allows for risky climbs. That's why people like, the reward of  calculating the release of bazooka and eluding its blast radius. It takes certain skills just to do that in nick of time.

No no ladies, I am not dismissing parachute, and disputing the fact it is useful in certain scenarios. But the question is, do we really need it? Do we need to depend on parachute to save us?