*BUMP*

5 days left to vote!

Quote from: Lupastic on April 25, 2024, 01:40 AM
what you linked there doesn't answer the questions though.. neither the terrains, nor converting to PNG is mentioned there, that's why I asked here.

It does answer the question Lupastic, it says specifically, "Both players/clans need to agree on the map.".

I'm not sure if you're aware but that means you can disagree for any reason, it means if they don't all agree on the map, then you can't use it, period. Regardless how the map is made, whether you made it, whether someone else made it.

I don't see why you don't understand this? The way it's written covers ANY reason to refuse a map. Which is why I said when we pick TTRR you can request a different map, something that you feel comfortable playing on, and that I'd rather not pick TTRR anyway since Zalo doesn't like it, but we were trying to save time.

You said Bo1 at first anyway, then changed your mind... I've openly stated I hate playing Bo3 games but I had no problem doing it for your clanner since you were in a rush anyway.

Then Zalo had to go anyway and we didn't get to play ours LOL! Which is fine by me we can play again later, it was a little annoying but stuff like this happens and we'll see you another day it's ok.

Quote from: Lupastic on April 25, 2024, 01:40 AM
doesn't the original picker of the scheme decide if they wanna use wkterrains or not, convert it to PNG or not? since u cannot beg for it forever to be changed again and again.. sure if someone has problems with the map size, shape, format etc, that can be discussed. but wkterrains do have freedom to be picked I guess - at least that's what I thought so far. and I have never seen anyone asking not to convert the map to PNG, and manually place 100% objects on the map beforehand.. this only helps the map to be better quality. and that is not called mutually agreeing to something, it's called one player complains as long as the other changes it to sth suitable.. but my original question is: is this even legit, as one player is not the picker of the scheme?

Well for starters, custom terrains are not part of the official game, you need a module to use them, you cannot force people to use things which aren't even features of the standard game.

At least you have the option to use them with other people who like using them.

As for PNG maps, my personal reason for refusing to use PNG maps that have been converted like this is because the background has weird colours and changes how the destroyed soil is displayed on screen when you use the background that I use.

I've been playing default schemes the exact same way for over 20 years using the exact same background, that's what my eyes are used to, that's how I'm used to judging destroyed soil for pixel perfect shots and bounces. Then people started using this background in BnGs and it was affecting some of my shots because I couldn't see things the way they used to be and it was offputting to me I couldn't get used to it. So I stopped playing them.

Now, I cannot remember this word for word but Sensei said he likes using PNG only when he plays BnG and other schemes because it helps him see the destroyed soil better. So clearly there are people who have issues either way. It's a shame we can't have both, so you can use PNG map and I can see it as normal.

Anyway, those 2 issues that I have with custom terrains and PNG converted maps are issues that not everyone has, which is why it's optional to agree or disagree on the map. The point is that, if anyone isn't happy with the map choice, they have the right to refuse to play.

Now, if it's 2 fresh picks and you have first pick and you have 1 scheme and 1 map in mind to play and someone refuses, then you can just abandon the match and play someone else. If you've already played their pick, and then they refuse your map, if you aren't happy you can report a free win make a complaint I guess. Though if your opponent has a valid reason for refusing the map then it's likely you will have to pick another map and play the match anyway.

Quote from: Lupastic on April 25, 2024, 12:47 AM
btw: are there any rules on the site/within the league about having the freedom to pick wkterrains? can someone force you to pick standard terrains only, even if its not their pick? what about converting maps to PNG, so you can seed full objects on the map? when it's your pick you can pick any terrains and convert it to PNG, nope?

I'm not talking about the maps in general, nor their shape, only asking about the terrains and converting/not converting them

Quote
Both players/clans need to agree on the map.

I've told you this before and I'm not sure why you don't believe me when it's directly from this page:

https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/basic-info/#107

^^ Section 4 under 'Proceeding'.

This means you can refuse any map you want for many reasons, including, but not limited to:

It's too complex. It's too simple. It's custom terrain. It's PnG converted. It's too big. It's too small. It's uneven. It's biased. You know they've played it before. You just don't like how it looks...

Yes, you can play with custom terrains if both players/clans/parties are happy, but if someone says no, then just change it and find something you're both happy with.

Now there is Shiny Forts!

Quote from: Shtaket on April 24, 2024, 04:31 PM

Quote from: Triad on April 24, 2024, 04:21 PM

Quote from: Shtaket on April 24, 2024, 03:51 PM
did I do so much? I won't do this again.

You mean your challenge record? 111 is really good, but not unbeatable. Not sure if I can beat it before the challenge ends.

I meant conversation. For example, I don't care what method I used to get to 15

Well, as long as it's what we consider to be either a swoosh or a mexican swoosh then it's fine.

The good thing is, we know absolutely how to judge it efficiently now.

---

The difference between Masta and I seems to be the way in which we measure the validity of a move. He said and I quote - "For me it's more about the trick being executed on the first possible frame than how it looks" which means he counts the missing frames that you cannot see normally. I highly doubt anybody even knew this was possible before replays and TA was available.

On the other hand I measure every move based on what you see with the normal frame by frame replay, and if replays weren't available, you'd record it and slow it down showing effectively the same thing. Instead of using TA to show "what we actually meant to happen but doesn't actually happen unless you use THIS specific replay feature to analyze it".

Speaking about those missing frames... They don't exist naturally do they? Those were added to the game via "tweening" weren't they? If this is the case then it's even stronger support to why I don't consider the move that Shtaket did a genuine swoosh. We don't measure moves by the direction the rope shoots only, we also measure them with what we see, the position we're in as we do them etc.

It's actually weird to me why the game was designed like this now, like, why not just show the LAST part of the frame instead of the first as it's being executed? Anyway I'm sure there's a reason for it. If that's the way it really is, then why not just show it like that? Though, that would take away this frame perfect new move we discovered lol.

Regardless of which way you record, it's interesting that in 25 years of playing this game, I've never seen that before!

Quote from: Masta on April 24, 2024, 09:57 AM
I hope you take this away from the discussion too: you need to do testing before making claims. Even if you think you're 100% sure there may be a small detail about how the game works that you have forgotten. Be careful not to state your opinions as facts when it's critical that your own opinions don't come through as facts. That way when someone is asking for advice they can make their own informed decision.

Not sure what you think you achieved here but the same advice applies to you lol.

1:01:40 - Decent shot.

You're allowed infinite attempts?

Hi, in this game it was micro not oldsock.

https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-241987/

This is why I absolutely LOVE getting into friendly forum confrontations with people!

You find out cool shit like this all the time!

Just discovered a new rope move, after so many years, not every day you get that!

This is the best way to explain it:

Swoosh:

When doing a swoosh, the flagpole extension on the last visible normal speed frame must be over and past the vertical point of the direction you're travelling, as well as the rope must shoot in the same direction.

Arch/Mexi:

When doing an arch or a mexi, the flagpole extension on the last visible normal speed frame must be before and not past the vertical point of the direction you're travelling, as well as the rope must shoot in the same direction.

Mexican Swoosh:

When doing a mexican swoosh, the flagpole extension on the last visible normal speed frame must be before and not past the vertical point of the direction you're travelling, but the rope must shoot in the same direction as the direction you're travelling. Note, this is only possible for ONE frame at the very precipice of the flagpole extension.

For all 3, subpixels or slow motion does not count, just frame by frame using normal game speed.

Edit - Triad calls the Mexican Swoosh "The Jackpot Frame" lmao, I like it, it's true, it's actually stupidly but interestingly difficult to pull this off without going HORRIBLY slow!

I've been chatting with Triad on Discord and it seems this is what we're going to be using as standard for Darts from now on.

We are however going to allow both the swoosh and mexican swoosh for swoosh for Darts and Darts challenges in general.

This is trippy, looks like you're receiving both grave damage and fall damage lol.

The first one especially, with LG would do about 20 damage? Then you take like 11hp damage from 3 little bumps from napalm.

Same kind of with second one.

Though at the same time... I can sort of see it... Interesting.

Quote from: Masta on April 23, 2024, 04:11 PM

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 12:56 PM
It is not an incorrect assumption.

It is an incorrect assumption, you and Triad did not and still do not have the same view of what a swoosh is. To you it looks like an arch so you have the opinion that it isn't a swoosh, for Triad it is enough that the rope shoots to the right if even if it looks like it would be an arch on the last frame the rope is visible. (03:40.60 in the replay)

What are we even talking about now?

I am saying that me saying it's not a swoosh, was not an incorrect assumption.

It was not a proper swoosh, so therefore it was not an incorrect assumption, Triad hasn't even got anything to do with this specific point.

Quote from: Masta on April 23, 2024, 04:11 PM

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 12:56 PM
That picture, it's not a swoosh it's an arch!

You yourself wrote earlier in this thread that what is and isn't a trick is a matter of opinion, so why are you stating it as a fact that it's not a swoosh?
It looks like an arch because the rope undergoes a frame of internal motion before being released.

I'm stating it as a fact that my opinion is a swoosh, the opinion itself isn't a fact other than the fact itself being that the fact IS an opinion.

As in, the fact of the matter is that it's an opinion.

Also, internal motion doesn't count... It's what we SEE that counts. And it's not a swoosh.



Trust me, I understand exactly what you are saying.

It still doesn't make it a swoosh if you don't SEE the rope actually ON the right side!

That's why when you explain to someone HOW to actually do a swoosh you say "Up and over and down" or "Up and release PAST the vertical point".

As in you release the rope AFTER the point, not before it.

You can clearly see in the picture above that it was released BEFORE you can see the rope on the right side.

If you want this to change, then tell Deadcode to make the frames properly visible, then we'll talk, until then, it's not a proper swoosh by the definition of a swoosh I've always been told, taught and lead to believe otherwise. This goes back BEFORE TA even existed.

Quote from: Masta on April 23, 2024, 04:11 PM

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 12:56 PM
I said if the only requirement to be a swoosh is to fire rope right then sure its a swoosh.

In the context of this challenge that is what constitutes as a swoosh, here in this challenge that is in fact a swoosh.

I can't argue with that!

If you guys want to label this as a swoosh, even if it doesn't actually meet all the traditional requirements of what people assumed a swoosh actually is historically, even if I don't like it, I've got no choice but to accept that so that's fair enough.

Quote from: Masta on April 23, 2024, 04:11 PM

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 12:56 PM
I am not wrong about the angle you can see in the picture that the rope is going left from the middle

That isn't the angle we were discussing. We were discussing the angle of the rope on the frame after the last frame the rope is rendered (03:40.62 in the replay). You said that angle would be at best totally vertical, but it is actually sloped slightly to the right.

I see what the problem is now:

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 21, 2024, 08:51 PM

Quote from: Masta on April 21, 2024, 08:46 PM
Unfortunately that's not how the ninja rope works, there's quirk with the rope making it so it should be released 1 frame earlier than what the rendered frame is showing.

Yeah but at best it would be totally vertical, and still not a swoosh.

Yeah I was wrong about that, thinking about 2 different things at the same time.

So yeah, ignore that, yes I said that but it's bullshit and not what I actually wanted to say. I corrected it in the last time I addressed you.

Quote from: Masta on April 23, 2024, 04:11 PM

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 12:56 PM
Though yes, I'll admit I temporary forgot about the pre-frame thing. Which is irrelevant

It's relevant to determine a correct result in the context of this challenge, where if the rope shoots to the right after release even if it looks like an arch it's considered a swoosh.

It's irrelevant because it doesn't matter anymore, Triad added it, then deleted it, then added it again, but Shtaket went ahead and got a better score anyway so it's irrelevant now.

Yes, it's relevant to this challenge to all agree on what IS a swoosh in the event that happens, but irrevelant to the original point I was trying to make which is that it SHOULDN'T count because it's not a genuine swoosh!

If the last frame you see of the rope, is sticking up to the left, while you're travelling right to do a swoosh, then it's not a swoosh because the rope HAS TO BE VISIBLE on the right to actually be a swoosh.

I don't even care if Triad or you don't agree with me, that's what I've always believed a swoosh is, and what I will always continue to believe.

If anything though, I'm glad we've had this little discussion because we've actually discovered a new move, the mexican swoosh! That's the most exciting thing I got from this entire escapade!

It's not a mexi, it's not a swoosh, it's a mexican swoosh!

---

Quote from: FoxHound on April 23, 2024, 02:24 PM
I was just wondering. Thanks for the answer. Still, usually you admit you are wrong in minor details, but the major point of the discussion you go endlessly, and you don't seem to change your point of view. Usually the discussion doesn't end, people just stop replying your posts.

Well yeah, often we all get minor details wrong... It's like you're trying to tell me the sky is blue right now, that humans need oxygen to survive and that 2 + 2 = 4.

Yes, of course I go on endlessly, I like to talk and debate... Do you think I'm the only one though? I mean think about it... If I am going on "endlessly" then surely it takes 2 to tango right?

So why do you blame ME alone, when there are so many other people who also go "endlessly" with me, because I obviously don't do it alone... Why is it ok for other people to "go on endlessly" WITH ME but for me it's such a problem to do it back to them lol?

Your logic is flawed FoxHound.

Quote from: FoxHound on April 23, 2024, 02:24 PM
I think you have more obsession on this than me. I'm not the only one complaining here publicly that your posts are often exhaustive/excessive. I usually participate the discussions and argument, specially when is a subject that I have interest or that I have knowledge about. You never seen me discussing about keyboards for example.

Nah, I'm perfectly fine, it doesn't take long to write or read my posts at all. You say it the most recently though, it's pretty funny.

---

Let's do some math though... When I look at the "Members" there are 252 pages, 30 members per page, on the last page there is only 4 so 7560 minus 26 is that's 7534.

Out of 7534 people who have signed up to TUS, minus let's say, 100 of those accounts that are probably Sir-J.

7434 people who have signed up to TUS.

Now, it's always the same 2-10 people who complain about the size of my posts, at the very most, I'd say about 30 or 40 people unique players over the entire span of TUS timeframe have ever complained about the length of my posts.

If we just say 40 though(keep in mind this is being generous), that's 0.538068335% of TUS users have complained about my posts being "exhaustive/excessive".

Now that we know it's a VERY SMALL minority of users who actually have an issue with my posts and openly speak out about it.

I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist over 0.5% of TUS players who complain about the way I write. Not to mention that the majority of that 0.5% are people I don't even consider friends or friendly so I'm pretty happy here.

Now, obviously all those TUS accounts, probably half of them are inactive...

Even if 25% of people didn't like my posts, it still wouldn't be enough to be a problem.

So clearly the problem is you, and the rest of the minority that have the issue, after all, it's your issue, not mine.

Quote from: FoxHound on April 23, 2024, 02:24 PM
Ok, but you should know your behavior may cause conflicts and problems socially speaking, no matter if you cares about it or not.

Don't worry about me, I fully understand the butterfly effect.

Quote from: Triad on April 23, 2024, 02:53 PM

• Since you activate drill at Darts, and not shoot rope again, I decided to check rope angle, but now I realize that rope angles are not really trustworthy due to hidden frames.
• Thanks to TA, I was able to see the potential rope angle, and I believe it should be the only requirement.
  
  
  
  • Swooshes on Darts maps are a remix of the original swoosh. And as I said, while we're playing any roping scheme. we'd only check the shooting angle, so that's why I also applied this principle to Darts.
  • Even at Darts, you wouldn't pay attention to pre-release rope angle if the swoosh WAS NOT THE LAST TRICK BEFORE THE DRILL. For example, if it was Swoosh to Deviation, you'd only pay attention to post-release firing angle.

As I've said multiple times already, this is neither an arch, a mexi or a swoosh, it's something new entirely.

I'm just calling it a mexican swoosh because it's perfectly in the middle of being both while being neither.

Personally speaking, I'd still void that turn though, the rope has to be on the direction you're actually doing the swoosh for it to be a genuine swoosh, not the opposite side. When I made the first Darts map to use a swoosh, that's what I had in mind at least.

If the entire community and game developers decide otherwise, then fair enough, I'll have to accept that is is their choice to agree on that but I'll still say it's not a genuine swoosh whenever it's my decision.

However, this is Triads challenge, he decides.[/list]

Quote from: Masta on April 23, 2024, 09:58 AM
You either wrote this with the assumption that Triad's views on what constitutes a swoosh is the same as yours, which is an incorrect assumption otherwise the score would not have been changed back to 99. Or you didn't know when writing this that the rope undergoes 1 frame of motion internally before being released and you wrote something wrong based on a lack of knowledge of how the game works.

It is not an incorrect assumption.

That picture, it's not a swoosh it's an arch!

Triad changed it to a swoosh because when I used TA if I released rope ON THAT FRAME it shot right even though the rope was facing left.

I said if the only requirement to be a swoosh is to fire rope right then sure its a swoosh. So I assume he changed it.

If the score has been changed back then its because after further conversation about what is and isn't an actual swoosh we've came to the conclusion that it is indeed NOT a swoosh.

Conversation over.

Quote
You were wrong about the angle, it is in fact at an angle that is sloping slightly to the right.

I am not wrong about the angle you can see in the picture that the rope is going left from the middle

It also is possible for the rope to be perfectly vertical, albeit you can't be moving from side to side only up and down.

Though yes, I'll admit I temporary forgot about the pre-frame thing. Which is irrelevant anyway since it's still not a swoosh either way because the last frame you see the rope it's on the left not the right.

The point wasn't so much that the rope WOULD be totally vertical, but that it's not a swoosh because the rope disappears before the point of ACTUALLY BEING vertical... Had you released drill on that frame it's the last frame you would see the rope therefore "at the best it would be vertical" meaning that you simply wouldn't see the rope on the right side.

Sure I was wrong about the rope being actually vertical but that wasn't really what I was getting at anyway lol.

---

Also, at foxhound, I've admitted to being wrong thousands of times in my life, usually on stream or in person mostly. On forums I usually do my research BEFORE posting so it's rarer to be wrong on forums than in person. It had happened plenty though...

You have an unhealthy obsession with my word/post count... I've said countless times to countless people when I've been wrong and that I actually LOVE being wrong when it's proven because everything I know I was taught by other people anyway and when I'm wrong and someone shows me the truth, I'm growing as a person and that's a good feeling.

Though everytime you say this shit foxhound... Sigh... It's as if you want me to just say I'm wrong all the time for no reason. Like you want me to be a pushover, an absolute wimp who doesn't have the courage to defend his beliefs... F that.

If I believe I am right then I take it as far as possible until someone has proof I'm wrong and then I'll probably thank them for taking the time to teach me and share with me.

Forums are but a fraction of my life, stop worrying about me being right or wrong and just focus on the truth whether IT is right or wrong because that's more important than me anyway.

It would be nice if you joined in the discussion and only spoke about the discussion and stop babbling on about another person's post count or whatever, that's not important, the truth is.

If my posts are too long and you are too lazy or not interested enough to read them entirely, then I honestly don't give a f.

Deal with it.

---

So yeah, when it comes to rope tricks and stuff...

We base it on what we can see not hidden frames and things that haven't been rendered yet. Or, at least, I always have and always will anyway because it makes more sense and is easier to check and see for all without needed TA or knowledge about how the game renders stuff.