Quote from: oldsock on October 05, 2018, 06:48 PM
This is how it works, Keep it Simple, KIS- KEEP IT SIMPLE. Only way a league or life works well and enjoyable.

please! lets do it and lets get komodo and anubis and others playing and trying to be the best wormer again! i could probably manage 30 games a season and maybe more if i had something to play for, and thats a PO spot. If activity gets too high we can increase PO spots or game limit to reach POs.

lets just keep it simple

4 PO spots
add koas/arieal/moleshopper
60 day seasons (30 months)
rolling seasons (no break between them)
clean navigation across site to main league
30 games minium to reach POs (even if someone is not as active as others, a high winning percentage will award them with PO spot - look at almog who wasn't that active compared to others but consistently managed to reach POs when league was ok)
Some PO system of highest seed picks first

ps. there is 9 days until the new season, can we do all these changes in time? I'd personally be motivated to search for tus if the above was introduced and honestly, WA has always been a passion in my life, i've explained the situation to my wife of the dying competition and she understands if i platy worms again... 

Lets just try those changes and see what happens next before we get lost in PO classes etc

i think reducing season length to 2 months and a change on the visual experience of browsing and navigating the site for first time users will improve things, MI has agreed to making it a bit more simply to see the most active and current league. It might be worth hiding TEL, rope league and all those other variations somewhere for historical data browsing and not to overwhelm us with so many links and places to go...

I like the idea of scheme classes, but i personally would only enforce them at a PO stage? And the POs could be very minimum at this stage due to active of only 4 playoff spots? Bo3 or Bo5 from the different 'classes'? Whatever those classes are is indeed up to debate and probably should be done in a separate topic.

I don't see an issue in including moleshopper and ariel into the mix personally, but i do understand the point of views of people saying its too many schemes to master, however it doesn't matter if you can't master them all surely? Because you make up your skills in another area, and as long as the playoffs have the right 'classes' you'll be ok knowing that if someone was the best ariel/hysteria player in POs, you've still got a chance to pick elite/inter, roper, or ttrr/bigrr if you know what i mean?

finding the right class groups won't be easy.. but lets worry about that in the POs and see if we get increased activity? even if POs are picking an approved scheme in order, and as long as the highest seed player has first choice, its still fair and the best allrounder should still win?
If an allrounder today means being pro in moleshop and ariel then so be it, they are the more active player and popular schemes on WA and PO seeds will be determined by your activity and skill level which should reflect the current state of wormnet right? The league should represent what people are playing in AG and people are still playing classic and people are playing newer schemes, so lets have an inclusive league of what represents today's wn. I've got no issues with someone who totally owns these new schemes being in POs because they deserve their place there for taking the time to learn and enjoy that scheme.

its just the same as 10 years ago, technical experts in one scheme like ryan and lordhound in rr, or komodo in bng could nearly get a 100% win, but thats why we've got rating schemes now to encourage allround activity. Imagine if mablak and random00 were active with all their allrounder schemes maxed out with elite rating, add a new scheme and they would need to train and learn it before seeing that rating increase, so a pro in moleshopper, at somepoint is going to start picking their weaker schemes if interested in points to be champion of wa.


thinking about this more, with 2 month seasons, 4 place POs and maybe 30 games to reach POs spot, highest points earn a PO spot. That would be enough to sustain a league and system perhaps for todays level of activity? Players like dibz, oldsock, csongi, sentator, etc could easily play enough games to have POs and be the season champion again and that might be enough to encourage old players to return, but newer players to take part, especially if schemes in that system included schemes they enjoyed. Look at the tournaments, they are still active and popular, WA isn't dying, its just evolving and we need a league that represents the interest of todays players, but new gen and classic.

Quote from: TheKomodo on September 20, 2018, 03:21 PM

Quote from: skunk3 on September 20, 2018, 09:43 AM
I think the real question that needs to be asked is of the inactive players: What would you NEED to see implemented to become seriously active again?

Personally, for me, i'd play singles if the league was simplified into 3 schemes, but i'd have to personally like those 3 schemes as well.

And that's an option I don't think many people would like to see lol.

for me it would be activity, knowing whenever i log into wn i can find a classic tus single or clanner and that enough players were taking part to make it worthwhile trying to make CKC win the leagues or reaching playoffs and winning against a group of skilled allrounders.

Just like the domino effect of old players disappearing so quickly, it would need a similar effect in a positive way of getting people back.

seasons at nearly a year long make me not want to even bother because there will never be an end to a season so whats the point?

we are all in agreement about how we are on deathsdoor, so lets just reduce the season length back to their originals and add arieal to classic, there is literally nothing to lose and MI could make the change tomorrow i'd imagine??

Quote from: Sensei on September 18, 2018, 08:42 PM

Quote from: Chicken23 on September 18, 2018, 08:25 PM


i just want to be able to find a tus or competitive game on the odd occasion when i come online, but i can't be the sole driver of sitting on ag and always being active to try and keep WA. I love worms and don't want to see competitive leagues die, but it needs everyone working in the same direction and some collective mind set to make it enjoyable enough for us to either all come back, or motivate new players to want to play 'league' style.

Probably wasn't your intention but I saw this post as: "my time is more precious than yours so you rather sit in ag and make stuff happen so I can come in once a week and get some instant games going.."
Some of us are tired of trying to convince oldschool to get back.

I can totally see how the post came across like that and point accepted. I think what I was trying to say is that one person cannot single handedly restore competitive league games to wa. It needs to be a collective effort. I just know personally the reasons why i am inactive and so many other oldschoolers are is because of personal reasons in life with jobs and family etc, compared to 10 or even 5 years ago when i had less responsibilities.

Quote from: Sensei on September 18, 2018, 08:42 PM

There was dozens of polls and tryouts to make league active again. Not many of ppl are interested anymore. Lots of schemes still needs corrections but we can't even get that going. As I've mentioned few times - of all community only around 40 ppl voted in that poll about new update release.. And 80% of them voted "NO!"
What else is there to say!?

Although, I would be the last to say it's over. Will support any ideas that might actually get us somewhere. But lets stop recycling posts. Twitters, reddits, twitch, compilations, videos, promotions. Surely there are ppl in community that can get some new faces, playing on nostalgia card. Saw it, did it. It's possible. But I don't have skills nor resources for attracting larger amount of newbies.

I hate going in circles and recycling posts, everyone disagrees, komodo (sorry Dave) will always argue against something or someone else will. Just sitting around debating it isn't going to help unless there are some real actions taken and the only person who can do that is MI.

Yes we are all in agreement that to make the league active again we need to train newbies and log into ag to play ourselves, but we would be lying to ourselves if there are not other things we can do (mainly MI) and some changes to the TuS website, or the creation of a more simple league system and website, would make competitive gaming in worms and the concept of logging into a website to report the games you've played on wa into that league more appealing.

As mentioned, adding in newer schemes which are more popular to the players of today will help.
Improving the UX/UI of tus site and navigation to make it more clear and simple to report games and see standings (currently we have about 4 different leagues and standing tables?) but in the older league days it was just one ladder or 1 league and so easy to see exactly what was going on.

Centralize all the leagues and systems so its clear whats being played, we are spoilt for too much choice.
Reduce the season length.

Perhaps with some of those changes things might pick up and it may make it more encouraging for older and more inactive players to continue to play and coming to AG maybe more than once a week.

 

i just want to be able to find a tus or competitive game on the odd occasion when i come online, but i can't be the sole driver of sitting on ag and always being active to try and keep WA. I love worms and don't want to see competitive leagues die, but it needs everyone working in the same direction and some collective mind set to make it enjoyable enough for us to either all come back, or motivate new players to want to play 'league' style.

I do think that cups are becoming more popular or getting activity shows that the short term appeal of winning a cup of tourney in schemes that are in the main league highlights the issues of the league seasons being too long and not allowing schemes which are now more popular than traditional classic.

I don't think the community or league should be governed just by komodo disagreeing either.

There needs to be some kind of action or vote, and i think maybe enough people here would vote for shorter seasons and adding kaos, arieal and mole shopper at a minimum?

lets open the flood gates, add ariel to classic, mole shooper and other popular schemes

reduce the season length, try 90 days again...

i think you need some motivation to play and a really long season is the opposite of that for anyone who is playing to try and make playoffs.

There is literally nothing to lose and with this little activity putting all the schemes in 1 pot to encourage the new players is fine.

What is the different between classic allround and classic overall? It just seems confusing when you hoover over standings and see so many options.

A part of online community building is UX/UI. The user experience is going to be important on a website and you want to make things more simply, we can argue about the mindset of players doing league games but we could also make it easier if the barriers to entry of learning how a league works and playing games were easier.

So the new season length is nearly 1 year?? How can we currently be on 335th day of season #3?? Thats insane? Why on earth would i want to even play a single league game if i have to wait nearly a year to be crowned champion of wa for a season??

Quote from: Senator on August 21, 2018, 08:36 PM
You were away for too long Chicken23

There is all-round ladder. Rope and default ladders are just on top of that. Inter and Big RR are already in the all-round (Classic) league.

Seasons were 60 days for a long time. Only after the rope and default ladders were introduced the all-round season was lengthend. Activity had dropped well before that.

Playoffs are already possible with 4 players.

I don't think more schemes or a different point system would help at all. People on WormNet are not interested in playing in a league and if they are, they don't want to play Classic league schemes. You could make a league with Mole Shopper, Shopper and Intermediate, for example, but I'm not sure if even that would bring new players. Btw, I asked players who participated in Mole Shopper cups if they were interested in a Mole Shopper league and only 6 were interested.

Ok. I think one problem is then that all the different ladders confuse people and potential new commers? You just want to see one set of standings. Looking through the list of games there are free league schemes that are being split between that league and classic. IF activity is at an all time low then combining the free and classic leagues would centralise all games into 1 league which could boast activity. You need to make the league appeal to the mole shopper, and Ariel, ssr guys.

I think the tus league looks far too complex and the games are being split across different leagues in that sense? Whats the harm of merging free with classic and letting some free league schemes being available for playoff choices?

oh and ariel.

Why don't we propose some changes for MI to implement in a league update and see what that does for tus?

• Bring back classic all-round league system structure with normal season lengths like original TUS system, not a split rope vs default ladder/standings
• Considering the removal of ratings for scheme. A point based system could be an exciting change for the community and does have its benefits. A 1-1 result results in both players gaining 2 points on a 3 point for a win and - 1 point for a lose system, sometimes people were not excited or motivated to play tus when the leader in a scheme because a 1-1 would result in overall rating drop and potential decrease in standings, this would reward activity which is currently what the league needs
• Only IF a point based system is bought back, reduce season lengths to 30 days, 45 days or 60 days for shorter seasons - this may encourage activity as the current season length in TUS makes me not the slightest bit interested because the season are so long i feel like there is no point in playing, need to find a balance of knowing that even if slightly inactive still have a change to compete in a season, 45-60 days could work well?
• Add the following schemes in classic league and remove from free league. SSR, Moleshopper, Inter, Big RR/Tower, Aerial. (these i feel as most popular non classic schemes being played on wn currently. Potential to add Darts?)
  
• Find a way to fit those schemes into the playoff catoregies - some good discussions has been made on this within the thread
• Consider reducing playoffs to top 4 positions based on activity - remember cl2k had no playoffs and was active (but 2 divisions..) and currently TUS struggles with 8 player POs?

Quote from: skunk3 on August 06, 2018, 07:18 PM

Quote from: TheKomodo on August 06, 2018, 12:56 PM
Nah, honestly, f**k that, do NOT make the mistake of giving people far too much choice, it just splits everyone up even more.

All we need is a small handful of popular schemes, something that appeals to old and new players.

I could name at least 10 people off the top of my head that would stop playing if this system Chicken23 and skunk3 said was put into place.

Who honestly gives a f**k about 3 scheme PO when you still gotta put up with boring ass schemes you don't wanna waste your life playing?

Seriously, I could pick Darts, takes 5 minutes, then they pick Mole Shopper or Team17 or BattleRace and i'm stuck for at least 30 minutes absolutely bored out my f**king skull, as would most people be, you can do a lot in your life in 30 minutes man, a lot of people have a lot of reasons for quitting, but I am very confident that's a big one, being forced to play schemes you don't like for their pick, then being insulted when you want to give a free win.

What's worse, someone not wanting to waste their time, or someone noob bashing someone that actually hates that scheme?

I've already said my piece so I won't propose more ideas because that's my personal favourite I suggested.

If you want people to play league games you have to entice them to do so. Older/veteran players would likely be fine with a league with a handful of scheme options, especially if the scheme picks made sense. However, never players are going to want to play the schemes that they know and enjoy. Also, regardless of what handful of schemes are picked for the league, I don't see that decision as enticing any currently inactive veteran players to become active. Do you? The people who are inactive right now aren't inactive because of the format of the league, mostly. They've stopped playing because of life issues, other games taking over interest and time, and lack of desire to play due to other people not playing.

We all know what are the most popular schemes on WormNET these days, and if we don't cater to those schemes then we cannot possibly expect the league to be active. It's as simple as that. Whether some of those schemes are boring and/or take a while to play is irrelevant to the stated overall goal. Why should Darts be an allowed scheme pick when T17 is bemoaned? What is 'boring' is pretty subjective when it comes to Worms if you ask me. I think that BnG is the most boring scheme ever and I'm not advocating removing it. IMO schemes like mole shopper, SSR, intermediate, classic, and wxw and/or shopper should definitely be a part of the league because that's what people play.

I don't see an option that can please everyone. I still say that we should focus on league shit after we address the primary problem, which is player inactivity. If more people post to TUS saying "I'm back!" and show up in AG to play games and whatnot, that will drum up more interest than a league format change.

And how would the issue of player activity be addressed?

I think life issues have been the biggest factor for veteran players and you can't really change that for those with kids, full time careers and busy social lives. I guess what you can change is wanting people to play WA in the little downtime that they do have by themselves. I've personally spent time watching TV series over w:a when i do get time to myself. I don't play other computer games.

I think an active league would bring alot of people back if it could stay active but its a bit of a chicken and egg situation. To get an active league again you need players coming back or ways of getting the new players, competing in league games. Hence the suggestion of a more inclusive league system.

Dave - you spend a lot of time still on w:a and on the worms community but you do not have the deserve to play classic league. Imagine if you did and was picking bng and roper against players like dibz and sbaffo, it would encourage others to maybe think about picking tus as well.

So far no one has commented the potential change of league system into a point based league. I think that would make a huge difference and could encourage activity even if the schemes stayed the same.

Also i'm not saying we add EVERY scheme, we could certainly experiment and add moleshopper, inter, big rr, ssr first.

lets get back on track about discussing a new league system we think is sustainable in wn's current state

...... so any opinions on my suggest. Lets stop reminiscing and work on a league format that would encourage activity and be open to today's current players but not exclude us old classic guys.

Quote from: TheKomodo on August 03, 2018, 08:59 PM
Wow really? I only ever saw people pick BnG Roper and Elite in WACL and CL2K back in 1999/2000...

I can't ever remember any those other schemes you mentioned being played, I didn't even know Forts was a thing back then in Leagues and didn't even think RR was invented till like 2000 or 2001 lol.

Perhaps that's part of the community I didn't see because I was so focused on Warmers and Ropers.

i think it was like, i could be wrong though as so long ago. HHC is probably only person who would remember that era from a league perspective now.

without being big headed, imagine how many more playoffs CKC might have won if po's were only 1 rope, bng and 1 default (this was elite, pro or t17) back in the day.

I think that playoff format might prove to be really motivational to the majority of players, i know for example coming up against good ropers that would own me in ttrr or roper, i'd still stand a chance in elite and bng. I might stand a chance in beating Random00 or Mablak in a playoff if i pulled off the elite and bng victory which i have done vs both in the past. If it was vs komodo, again i might fancy my chances of beating him in bng (he is better in bng than me usually but we've had amazingly close games) but the rope scheme if he went with rope i might stand a chance as i learnt league style with middle hides, being consistent and thinking of cr8 placements, i beat dibz in some tus ropers a few time :p Same with anubis, diana, darkz, almog any top allrounders that this game has seen.. infact my only league singles victory was on wwp against almog in final because i won the bng and elite. I can still remember some of the clanner 1 rope, bng and 1 default loses... the worst was to EiF and finding out years later that they cheated because MrRaja was using silkworm. 

So yes in a league situation i would totally favour the 3 playoff scheme options.

However that doesn't solve our current situation... which is activity of leagues and i think as i've said already this is down to either the oldschoolers coming back and playing again, or finding a way to motivate the new players of todays era into rank play.

Why don't we remove ratings? And add DONs and game limits? This would remove all the issues that Komodo pointed out, no avoiding would ever happen because;

a) you don't have a rating to risk if you lose (some good player avoid to keep their ratings if they were scared of losing to a better player)

b) you don't have to avoid if you don't like a scheme someone picks and you might lose because you can pick your prefer scheme and if you 1-1, both players either get 2 points, or you decide to make it 0-0.

I think this would let new players want to play because they could pick arial and mole shopper and still be rewarded for it, they might pick mole shop for all their picks in the league but at least they would be exposed to other more classic schemes, or different schemes that are not classic.

I admit it would need some thought to think it through, for example a ttrr is over in a few minutes and worth the same amount of points as a inter which could take hours if 3 rounds are used. But atleast it could bring everyone together and then we could pick a playoff system that follows the suggest model some people have mentioned of picking a rope based scheme, a default based scheme (elite, inter, t17), and an artillery based scheme, (bng, hysteria). Highest seed players pick first.

Suggested schemes accepted league schemes;

big rr
ttrr
(classic 30sec rr)
shopper
wxw
mole shopper
bng
super sheep racer (is this popular and would make new players want to take part?)
inter
elite
t17
hysteria
arial